DOS ain't dead

On November 5, 2014, ReactOS 0.3.17 (alpha) was released.

Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of NTVDM, which provides support for a wide range of 16bit applications, a long requested feature by the community. NTVDM is still undergoing work but we felt that it was ready enough to provide a sneak peak to the wider community. [... plus other misc. bugfixes ...]"

Website: https://www.reactos.org/

Downloads: https://www.reactos.org/download

* Installation CD
* Live CD
* Preloaded with QEMU (Windows hosted)
* Preloaded on a VMware virtual machine
* Preloaded on a Virtual Box virtual machine

> On November 5, 2014, ReactOS 0.3.17 (alpha) was released.
>
> Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of NTVDM,
> which provides support for a wide range of 16bit applications, a long
> requested feature by the community. NTVDM is still undergoing work but we
> felt that it was ready enough to provide a sneak peak to the wider
> community. [... plus other misc. bugfixes ...]"
>
> Website: https://www.reactos.org/
>
> Downloads: https://www.reactos.org/download

Is there a standalone version of this version of NTVDM available for download? I had tested some earlier standalone versions of ReactOS's NTVDM in Windows, which are quite unstable however due to the fact that they are still in alpha stage. No LFN API support either unlike Windows's own NTVDM.

> No LFN API support either unlike Windows's own NTVDM.

Unlike the w2k+ NTVDM. Afaik NT4 didn't support lfn's in NTVDM :)

> Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of NTVDM...

Wow, I hope it will not destroy my FAT partition during instalation again :) (I have backup...)

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> On November 5, 2014, ReactOS 0.3.17 (alpha) was released.
>
> Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of NTVDM,
> which provides support for a wide range of 16bit applications, a long
> requested feature by the community. NTVDM is still undergoing work but we
> felt that it was ready enough to provide a sneak peak to the wider
> community. [... plus other misc. bugfixes ...]"
>

I think the major news here is that they are listening to feature requests at all.

Joke aside, pretty interesting. Thanx for the info Rugxulo.

> > Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of
> > NTVDM,

Not yet much usable. No DPMI or VGA/VESA emulation. Has problems with full screen apps. I tested a 16 bit version of vim, Robert's patched fed and MS Word 5.5 installer. Haven't had luck with either. First had problem with starting full screen, second required a dpmi host and the third crashed before even starting the install. Also, there is no way to change ntvdm settings, no pif files or right click ntvdm properties.

But I guess this would work with simple command line apps (although it's much better to use win32 versions if they exist).

Well, it's a start.

> Well, it's a start.

Yes, maybe in year 2100 it will be finally 100% compatible with W2K including working NTVDM but there will be no living x86 machine to run the system :)

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> > > Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of
> > > NTVDM,
>
> Not yet much usable. No DPMI or VGA/VESA emulation. Has problems with full
> screen apps. I tested a 16 bit version of vim, Robert's patched fed and MS
> Word 5.5 installer. Haven't had luck with either. First had problem with
> starting full screen, second required a dpmi host and the third crashed
> before even starting the install. Also, there is no way to change ntvdm
> settings, no pif files or right click ntvdm properties.
>
> But I guess this would work with simple command line apps (although it's
> much better to use win32 versions if they exist).
>
> Well, it's a start.

Some old graphics .com games works.
And since they're working on protected mode and FPU (i.e. CPU side), DOS APIs and peripherals like keyboard and mouse don't have much priority ATM.

> > > Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of
> > > NTVDM,
>
> Not yet much usable. No DPMI or VGA/VESA emulation. Has problems with full
> screen apps. I tested a 16 bit version of vim, Robert's patched fed and MS
> Word 5.5 installer. Haven't had luck with either. First had problem with
> starting full screen, second required a dpmi host and the third crashed
> before even starting the install. Also, there is no way to change ntvdm
> settings, no pif files or right click ntvdm properties.
>
> But I guess this would work with simple command line apps (although it's
> much better to use win32 versions if they exist).
>
> Well, it's a start.

That is quite true. The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's NTVDM is that there is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so that I need a replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system I am using). But as RayeR said we may have to wait until Year 2100 that it finally includes a fully working NTVDM. DOSBox is probably still the best solution so far on such systems.

> That is quite true. The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's NTVDM
> is that there is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so that I
> need a replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system I am
> using). But as RayeR said we may have to wait until Year 2100 that it
> finally includes a fully working NTVDM. DOSBox is probably still the best
> solution so far on such systems.

There is also NKVDM project. But it's still in development, too.

> As far as we know, Microsoft Windows no longer supports 16-bit MS-DOS
> application and they removed NTVDM, since virtual 8086 mode is not
> available under amd64 extended mode. This project aimed at building a
> virtual dos machine for 64-bit Windows...

You'll find the complete text on the project's github and sourceforge repositories:
https://github.com/cshaxu/nkvdm
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nxvdm/

I think I have tried it some time ago, but don't remember the impressions.

> > Well, it's a start.
>
> Yes, maybe in year 2100 it will be finally 100% compatible with W2K
> including working NTVDM but there will be no living x86 machine to run the
> system :)

But emulators will still be alive and kicking. Unless the international copyright laws get even messier in the future...

> Some old graphics .com games works.
> And since they're working on protected mode and FPU (i.e. CPU side), DOS
> APIs and peripherals like keyboard and mouse don't have much priority ATM.

DPMI server is pretty much necessary for any serious DOS emulation. All modern tools are 32-bit. So I hope you're right.

> There is also NKVDM project. But it's still in development, too.

Hm, this says "A virtual DOS machine that runs legacy 16-bit DOS applications on various platforms" so no DPMI too. I think that for old 16b apps is dosbox good enough but for some latest 32b PM games and demos it's still slow. Did something changed on dosbox to better utilize multiple cores? or some new vtxx instructions? that could help boost performance.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> > That is quite true. The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's
> NTVDM
> > is that there is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so that
> I
> > need a replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system I
> am
> > using). But as RayeR said we may have to wait until Year 2100 that it
> > finally includes a fully working NTVDM. DOSBox is probably still the
> best
> > solution so far on such systems.
>
> There is also NKVDM project. But it's still in development, too.

Thanks. But even worse, there is no binary available at all. We have to compile from the source code ourselves (I'm going to try that).

> > > That is quite true. The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's
> > NTVDM
> > > is that there is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so
> that
> > I
> > > need a replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system
> I
> > am
> > > using). But as RayeR said we may have to wait until Year 2100 that it
> > > finally includes a fully working NTVDM. DOSBox is probably still the
> > best
> > > solution so far on such systems.
> >
> > There is also NKVDM project. But it's still in development, too.
>
> Thanks. But even worse, there is no binary available at all. We have to
> compile from the source code ourselves (I'm going to try that).

Not yet much usable either. I was able to compile both NKVDM and NXVM. But NKVDM's doc on how to actually use it seems to completely blank. Simply running it is simply not functional. I can get some result with NXVM though, and its emulation also seems to be better than ReactOS's NTVDM (I can at least get DOS 7's EDIT to work for instance), but overall it is still quite unstable and is certainly FAR behind Win2K's NTVDM for example. Obviously it can't be put into real use yet.

> On November 5, 2014, ReactOS 0.3.17 (alpha) was released.
> ReactOS-0.3.17-REL-live.zip Live CD

Does it work for you?

> Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion
> There is also NKVDM project. But it's still in development, too.

Enjoy [1] [2]

> which provides support for a wide range of 16bit applications

It doesn't boot up, so I can't run 8-bit applications in it, even less 16-bit ones.

Anyone dared to test M$WCRT.DLL from ReactorOS 0.3.17 with HX?

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

> or some new vtxx instructions? that could help boost performance.

Hardly. Although John Campbel has it in his (rather enormous) TODO list for his own DB fork (dosbox-x).

> Enjoy [1]
> [2]
>

We in Yugoslavia were not so close with Soviets. Even when communists took over after the ww2 wictory, the love afair with Stalin lasted only till 1948 or so. After that we were independent of Warsaw pact. Actually, Yugoslavia was one of the founders of the Non-Aligned Movement which was founded in Belgrade, the capital at the time (now the capital of Serbia) in 1961.

> > > > Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of
> > > > NTVDM,
> >
> > Not yet much usable. No DPMI or VGA/VESA emulation. Has problems with
> full
> > screen apps. I tested a 16 bit version of vim, Robert's patched fed and
> MS
> > Word 5.5 installer. Haven't had luck with either. First had problem with
> > starting full screen, second required a dpmi host and the third crashed
> > before even starting the install. Also, there is no way to change ntvdm
> > settings, no pif files or right click ntvdm properties.
> >
> > But I guess this would work with simple command line apps (although it's
> > much better to use win32 versions if they exist).
> >
> > Well, it's a start.
>
> That is quite true. The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's NTVDM
> is that there is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so that I
> need a replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system I am
> using). But as RayeR said we may have to wait until Year 2100 that it
> finally includes a fully working NTVDM. DOSBox is probably still the best
> solution so far on such systems.

According to http://code.reactos.org/changelog/reactos?cs=65430 , ReactOS NTVDM has its own VS project now. But you still have to use RosBE to checkout whole ReactOS trunk source and generate VS project files.

> We in Yugoslavia were not so close with Soviets. Even when communists took
> over after the ww2 wictory, the love afair with Stalin lasted only
> till 1948 or
> so. After that we were independent of Warsaw pact. Actually,
> Yugoslavia was one of the founders of the
> Non-Aligned
> Movement which was founded in Belgrade, the capital at the time (now
> the capital of Serbia) in 1961.

So you got a luck that your country was not invaded by Soviet and Warsaz pact armies to "normalize" situation and enforce the right socialism by strict Moscow rules. There was uprising in 1956 in Hungary and was supressed. In our Czechoslovakia there started liberal reforms in '60-ties that was resulted in Soviet and Warsaz pact armies internation "help" to setup back the hard socialism. And part of soviet army kept occupation over next 2 decades if something would go "wrong"...
But in Yugoslavia it was not also very liberal, I would say totalitarian and socialist too otherwise we could not travel to Yugoslavia so easy (here it was quite impossible to travel to West Germany or Austria without special permission). I was in Yugoslavia in 1986 on vacation. I also remember there was then some economy crisis in late 80-ties with huge inflation (I got some banknote with value maybe 1000000 dinars and you cannot buy nothing for it) so neither your independent socialism plan was successfull...

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> > > Changes: "A major new feature for this release is the inclusion of
> > > NTVDM,
>
> Not yet much usable. Well, it's a start.

Indeed, I think we all got our hopes up for 99% compatibility when clearly they were just proud to have anything! Hey, "something" is always better than nothing.

If I had to guess, their priorities are probably more focused on overall stability (which isn't even quite 80% yet), then Win32 fixes (for popular programs like modern web browsers), then secondary stuff like NTVDM.

Wengier:
"The primary reason I am interested in ReactOS's NTVDM is that there
is no NTVDM in 64-bit versions of Windows any more so that I need a
replacement to run under Windows x64 (which is the main system I am
using)."

It's almost a lost cause. MS has better things to do. The closest you get from them is Hyper-V (Win8 Pro x64 with advanced VT-X [nested page tables / POPCNT] only), but that clearly is focused 99% on modern Windows and (barely) some enterprise-y Linux (and their website doesn't seem to mention older partial support for FreeBSD at all). Hyper-V (since 2008) seems to be moreso a competitor to cloud companies and VMware than anything else. Even VirtualPC seems to be abandoned since 2011. In fairness, MS probably thinks home users will just use third-party tools (VirtualBox, DOSBox) anyways.

No, I don't think ReactOS NTVDM will ever be well-supported on Win64, but who knows? I think you're expecting too much from them. I think VirtualBox (with Intel Nehalem 2010 VT-X) is as close as you're going to get, for now. (Or just dual boot, but that has its own problems.)

RayeR:
"I think that for old 16b apps is dosbox good enough but for some
latest 32b PM games and demos it's still slow. Did something changed
on dosbox to better utilize multiple cores? or some new vtxx
instructions? that could help boost performance."

DOSBox is very slow, yes. It needs 1+ Ghz just to reach "fast 486" speeds. It's only for old games, not everything else. If you want more, you may do better to use DOSEMU under Linux (although even that, AFAIK, doesn't use VT-X). The goal of DOSBox was to be portable, so it doesn't have much x86 hardware support (no V86 mode, no VT-X). Heck, they haven't had a proper release in over four years. Who knows if GCC (or MSVC or whatever) has improved enough since then to show any speedups. Feel free to recompile it yourself and test (yeah right, I probably wouldn't). Actually, I heard that a 64-bit build was slower than a 32-bit one. Gotta love the 64-bit hype that "everything is faster" (yes, I personally blame you, MarcoV, heheh). It uses SDL 1.2, which I don't think?? is multi-threaded although it may?? offload the audio to a separate thread (don't quote me!). No idea when or if "core=dynamic" works the way we expect. Honestly, it's just not meant for anything besides old games, and they've clearly accomplished their goal, so I blindly guess they don't care as much anymore or have better things to do. Even ReactOS NTVDM seems mostly motivated by trying to get old games working.

> > On November 5, 2014, ReactOS 0.3.17 (alpha) was released.
> > ReactOS-0.3.17-REL-live.zip Live CD
>
> Does it work for you?

Sorry, I only tested under VirtualBox. Like I said, it's not totally stable overall but good enough to play around with, esp. Control Panel (Add/Remove Programs) and (Program Files) Internet Explorer ("WINE Gecko").

The NTVDM part wasn't very functional but some very simple stuff worked (e.g. PSR Invaders, albeit without sound) although had some bugs with screen clearing and not much shell functionality (no pipes for DOS yet).

Like I said, the "ReactOS Applications Manager" has some interesting stuff since default is pretty bare bones. E.g. (Tools) 7-Zip and (Internet & Network) Firefox are fairly crucial, I'd say, if you intend to actually test anything.

I'm not normally big on relying on Win32 apps. Well, I'm no professional, so I don't have to, but the few I was able to download worked okay (r4 Rexx, Oxford Oberon, csed, awk95, FASM, NASM, Info-Zip). Even FPC's nightly ppcross8086 seemed to work, but I didn't test very heavily.

Actually, (Other) has Bochs and DOSBox, and (Development) has FreeBASIC and Lazarus, so that's interesting as well, although I didn't test them.

> Gotta love the 64-bit hype
> that "everything is faster" (yes, I personally blame you, MarcoV, heheh).

(Why? Blame the lazy programmers that made it?)

> So you got a luck that your country was not invaded by Soviet and Warsaz
> pact armies to "normalize" situation and enforce the right socialism by
> strict Moscow rules. There was uprising in 1956 in Hungary and was
> supressed. In our Czechoslovakia there started liberal reforms in '60-ties
> that was resulted in Soviet and Warsaz pact armies internation "help" to
> setup back the hard socialism. And part of soviet army kept occupation over
> next 2 decades if something would go "wrong"...
> But in Yugoslavia it was not also very liberal, I would say totalitarian
> and socialist too otherwise we could not travel to Yugoslavia so easy (here
> it was quite impossible to travel to West Germany or Austria without
> special permission). I was in Yugoslavia in 1986 on vacation. I also
> remember there was then some economy crisis in late 80-ties with huge
> inflation (I got some banknote with value maybe 1000000 dinars and you
> cannot buy nothing for it) so neither your independent socialism plan was
> successfull...

I'm too young to remember all this stuff. :) But I have some knowledge on the subject because I'm generally interested in the history. But we are already offtopic. ;)

Although it is an interesting discussion and I did prepare a long answer but changed my mind and erased it. :)

Short answer: yeah 80-ies were problematic (Tito died in the 1980., the country was in debt, etc), but people say 60s and 70s were mostly great.

> Like I said, the "ReactOS Applications Manager" has some interesting stuff
> since default is pretty bare bones. E.g. (Tools) 7-Zip and (Internet &
> Network) Firefox are fairly crucial, I'd say, if you intend to actually
> test anything.
>

I am afraid those can be pretty buggy. An earlier version of Firefox might work better (3.6.x?).

But, I'm more bothered with non working "back"/"forward" buttons in the explorer and the desktop that refreshes once per logon. They keep talking about the "new explorer", but I don't see even those basic things fixed.

Although I noticed their CMD (win32) got in much better shape several months/year ago. It used to be much buggier before. Now it's pretty usable.

So something is moving, but it's really slow. I guess most of the changes currently are under the hood.

>
> Actually, (Other) has Bochs and DOSBox, and (Development) has FreeBASIC and
> Lazarus, so that's interesting as well, although I didn't test them.

I think Dosbox used to work. I don't know for the others.

For me, ReactOS is more of the curiosity. I first found out about project 8-9 years ago. I can't say it didn't improve, but it's still very obviously alpha quality. Although they did have that big code refactoring few years ago. That set them back a little.

> Although it is an interesting discussion and I did prepare a long answer
> but changed my mind and erased it. :)

Yes, offtopic but you could drop me pm/mail.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

> Yes, offtopic but you could drop me pm/mail.

Pm sent. :)