Laaca

Czech republic, 14.01.2025, 17:58 |
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation (Users) |
For many years I use the BOOTMGR boot manager from this site on some of my computers.
Now I will speak about the modern one with Win10 + FreeDOS.
So, in this machine I have one physical hard disk partitioned into three partitions - Win10, FreeDOS and NTFS partiotion, now without OS (in the past I tried to install WinXP but without success)
The BootMGR is configured to let me choose from these 3 partitions.
Of course, if I select the partition without OS it will not boot to anything.
Now I would like to install in this partition some Linux. (Ubuntu?, something else?)
I have been never using Linux so it is a reason why I uncertain now.
Do I have to be careful about something during the Linux instalation?
What about MBR? Is here some danger that Linux installer will overwrite the MBR with BootMGR?
Of course, I want to keep the possibility to boot Win10 and FreeDOS. --- DOS-u-akbar! |
glennmcc

North Jackson, Ohio (USA), 15.01.2025, 00:43
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> For many years I use the BOOTMGR boot manager from this site on some of my
> computers.
> Now I will speak about the modern one with Win10 + FreeDOS.
>
> So, in this machine I have one physical hard disk partitioned into three
> partitions - Win10, FreeDOS and NTFS partiotion, now without OS (in the
> past I tried to install WinXP but without success)
To install Linux onto that currently NTFS partiton,
you will of-course need to change it to type 83 and reformat as ext4
>
> The BootMGR is configured to let me choose from these 3 partitions.
> Of course, if I select the partition without OS it will not boot to
> anything.
>
> Now I would like to install in this partition some Linux. (Ubuntu?,
> something else?)
> I have been never using Linux so it is a reason why I uncertain now.
> Do I have to be careful about something during the Linux instalation?
> What about MBR? Is here some danger that Linux installer will overwrite the
> MBR with BootMGR?
> Of course, I want to keep the possibility to boot Win10 and FreeDOS.
Yes, you'll need to be careful during Linux installation to be sure that the MBR does not get rewritten.
If I recall correctly from when I tried Ubuntu a few years ago, it will try to install GRUB as bootloader.
I can't speak to BOOTMGR but I can say that linux lilo
installed in the MBR _will_ boot DOS, WinCrap & Linux
Perhaps BOOTMGR will also do the same after getting Linux installed. --- --
http://glennmcc.org/ |
fritz.mueller

Munich, Germany, 18.01.2025, 19:01
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
Hi Laaca,
just a stupid question: How did you get DOS and Windows on one machine?
Did you install DOS first and then add Windows?
And which Bootloader do you use?
The other side:
Installing Win and Linux (without DOS) is simple.
Install Windows first (should be already done?), then install Linux,
give it the correct partition (something like /dev/sda3 or hda3 or higher, depending on your system, for security simply check the exact size of your "free" partiton. Most Linuxes ask for different ways to partition, offer you the option to format the partition in fs type where they think it is the best, this is the most dangerous problem. Installation of Linux itself and Grub usually runs automatically. Nevertheless: Do not forget to make a backup of Win and DOS.
I personally prefer Linux Mint, but this is a question of taste and depends on the power of your machine.
I personally would copy the HD to another HD so that you have two versions - and then try to install it on the copy.
Duplicating the HD is no problem with the Linux CD / DVD named "Knoppix", http://www.knoppix.org/, select English or German (both CDs are available), run the DVD and look for a tool named "Guymager". With this tool you can create forensic images, but it is also possible to copy HDs exactly byte for byte.
Knoppix is easy to handle as all HDs in your system are read/write, so the only thing you have to check is that you do not copy the empty HD on the old HD. |
rr

Berlin, Germany, 19.01.2025, 20:31
@ fritz.mueller
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> And which Bootloader do you use?
"I use the BOOTMGR boot manager from this site" -> https://www.bttr-software.de/products/bootmgr/ --- Forum admin |
bocke
20.01.2025, 09:23
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> What about MBR? Is here some danger that Linux installer will overwrite the
> MBR with BootMGR?
For the most popular "user friendly" distributions, yes.
Warning: The following is only valid for MBR installation. UEFI is a different beast.
Slackware is one that doesn't. But it will require you to manually add new partitions for Linux before instaling.
Althought you can do the same from the live CD, but it requires familiarity with Linux fdisk or parted partitioning tools.
The minimum setup would be a root Linux partition (83h) and a swap partition (82h). The size of swap partition will depend on your own need. If you plan to use hibernation you'll need it to be bigger than amount of RAM as the hibernation file is written on swap partition. If you have large amounts of RAM and won't ever use hibernation, you can even use half of the amount of RAM.
It's also possible to setup a swap file instead of the partiton, but that has it's own disadvantages. I also remember seeing a system daemon tha dynamically managed a swap file, but can't really remember the details as it's not commonly used.
After that the installation is easy from the textual dialogs. But you'll have to be careful, after installing all the packages and set the installer to install the boot loader to partition root and not MBR.
Than you should be able to chainload from BOOTMGR. |
fritz.mueller

Munich, Germany, 20.01.2025, 12:37
@ rr
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > And which Bootloader do you use?
>
> "I use the BOOTMGR boot manager from this site" ->
> https://www.bttr-software.de/products/bootmgr/
> Now I will speak about the modern one with Win10 + FreeDOS.
>So, in this machine I have one physical hard disk partitioned into three >partitions - Win10, FreeDOS and NTFS partiotion, now without OS (in the past >I tried to install WinXP but without success)
As it seems to be a new computer with 64 bit, I assumed that it uses UEFI. CSM is not often used on such machines, but it seems to used. But this is not my actual theme.
If you want to run Linux for a first test, I still recommend the Knoppix DVD as it uses RAM to boot up and you can see the GUI and test programs etc. You can see that you can read/write from your partitions (including NTFS) etc. as usual. But it does not modify the HD by itself.
In case that your new machine has no DVD-ROM you can create a bootable USB-Stick with Rufus https://rufus.ie/de/ - there is a portable version
https://github.com/pbatard/rufus/releases/download/v4.6/rufus-4.6p.exe available so that you have no need to install it.
In case that you need readonly there is another one, Caine, https://www.caine-live.net/ which is more thought for forensic users, but of course you can also do a lot of other things.
There are a lot of other Linux CDs, but most of them offer the option to install, which is nice but not necessary for a first test. |
Laaca

Czech republic, 21.01.2025, 11:17
@ bocke
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> Slackware is one that doesn't. But it will require you to manually add new
> partitions for Linux before instaling.
>
Great!
This is what I needed to know. OK, I will download the Slackware and try the variant without extra swap partition. --- DOS-u-akbar! |
bocke
22.01.2025, 02:19
@ fritz.mueller
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > > And which Bootloader do you use?
> >
> > "I use the BOOTMGR boot manager from this site" ->
> > https://www.bttr-software.de/products/bootmgr/
>
> > Now I will speak about the modern one with Win10 + FreeDOS.
>
> >So, in this machine I have one physical hard disk partitioned into three
> >partitions - Win10, FreeDOS and NTFS partiotion, now without OS (in the
> past >I tried to install WinXP but without success)
>
> As it seems to be a new computer with 64 bit, I assumed that it uses UEFI.
Doesn't have to be. It can also be Windows 10 32-bit, which likely doesn't use UEFI. A fact he uses BOOTMGR as the main boot manager points at that. |
bocke
22.01.2025, 02:20
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > Slackware is one that doesn't. But it will require you to manually add
> new
> > partitions for Linux before instaling.
> >
>
> Great!
> This is what I needed to know. OK, I will download the Slackware and try
> the variant without extra swap partition.
Let me know if you have any problems or questions. Long time Slackware user here. I might be of help. |
fritz.mueller

Munich, Germany, 22.01.2025, 12:20
@ bocke
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
I just run this Slackware from a bootable DVD. Everzthing important is on board, gparted for changing partitions, mc, krusader, etc.The GUI is nice too, it requires a password, even to enter the win partitions etc. The only thing I did not find was a manual way to update it from DVD The problem is that I could not boot with german kezboard lazout *just to show you, I know the position of most US characters by heart* and that it uses the KDE monster, (I think Plasma) with the result that the DVD needed a very very long time to boot up. Working with it from DVD makes no fun.
Well, it is a question of taste. |
Laaca

Czech republic, 23.01.2025, 00:22
@ fritz.mueller
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
I installed Slackware but I am not able to boot via BOOTMGR.
If I want to select to boot from Linux partition the BOOTMGR does not even try to boot it but it beeps and restarts.
I looked to the source doce of BOOTMGR and I believe that I found a quite problematic part in BOOTLOAD.INC:
cmp word [LOADADR + PARTSIGN], ISVALIDPART ; check if a valid
jne error ; bootable partition
ISVALIDPART = AA55
PARTSIGN = 01FEh
So, the BOOTMGR checks whether the partition has on offset 01FEh the value AA55h.
If yes, the booting process continues, if no, it is evaluated as a non valid partiotion and the boot code is not run.
In FAT systems it is OK and in NTFS maybe too.
But do the Linux filesystems (EXT3, EXT4,...) follow the convention that in offset 01FEh is value AA55h ?
I do not think so.
So, in my situation is necessary to modify the BOOTMGR source? --- DOS-u-akbar! |
bocke
23.01.2025, 07:29
@ fritz.mueller
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> I just run this Slackware from a bootable DVD. Everzthing important is on
> board, gparted for changing partitions, mc, krusader, etc.The GUI is nice
> too, it requires a password, even to enter the win partitions etc. The only
> thing I did not find was a manual way to update it from DVD The problem is
> that I could not boot with german kezboard lazout *just to show you, I know
> the position of most US characters by heart* and that it uses the KDE
> monster, (I think Plasma) with the result that the DVD needed a very very
> long time to boot up. Working with it from DVD makes no fun.
> Well, it is a question of taste.
What live version did you use? Did you use this one?
https://download.liveslak.org/slackware64-15.0-live/
If yes, you can find advanced booting parameters (including locale options) here:
http://docs.slackware.com/slackware:liveslak#boot_parameters_explained
Although, in KDE you should be able to change keyboard layout directly from the gui. It somewhere in Control Centre. Probably in Locale or Keyboard applets. Haven't used KDE in a while so I'm talking a bit out of memory. :) |
bocke
23.01.2025, 07:40
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> I installed Slackware but I am not able to boot via BOOTMGR.
> If I want to select to boot from Linux partition the BOOTMGR does not even
> try to boot it but it beeps and restarts.
>
> I looked to the source doce of BOOTMGR and I believe that I found a quite
> problematic part in BOOTLOAD.INC:
>
> cmp word [LOADADR + PARTSIGN], ISVALIDPART ; check if a valid
> jne error ; bootable partition
>
>
> ISVALIDPART = AA55
> PARTSIGN = 01FEh
>
> So, the BOOTMGR checks whether the partition has on offset 01FEh the value
> AA55h.
> If yes, the booting process continues, if no, it is evaluated as a non
> valid partiotion and the boot code is not run.
Uhm... According to this, AA55 at offset 01FEh should denote the end of MBR. That might mean no valid partition was found. If I'm reading that correct.
What motherboard is that? Does it have an UEFI BIOS or a legacy BIOS? How does your partiton layout looks? Which Slackware version did you install? 32bit or 64bit? |
Laaca

Czech republic, 24.01.2025, 14:56
@ bocke
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> Uhm... According to
> this,
> AA55 at offset 01FEh should denote the end of MBR. That might mean no valid
> partition was found. If I'm reading that correct.
>
> What motherboard is that? Does it have an UEFI BIOS or a legacy BIOS? How
> does your partiton layout looks? Which Slackware version did you install?
> 32bit or 64bit?
Yes, AA55 (or 55AA) at offset 01FEh means end of the MBR.
But besides that it is present (in the same offset) also in volume boot records in FAT ot NTFS formated partitions.
The BOOTMGR code unforunately checks this and does not allow to boot from partitions without the 55AA marker.
So the question is whether is sufficient to modify BOOTMGR to not to check 55AA or if some deeper changes are necesssary.
The question is whether the ext 2/3/4 partitions except the start of code execution from 0.st sector of their partitions (like FAT/NTFS) or from some other sector.
This thing is a even more complicated by existence of LiLo.
During the installation (64bit, version 15.0) I chose that I want to use Lilo and LiLo shall be located inside partition (not in MBR). --- DOS-u-akbar! |
bocke
24.01.2025, 17:54
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> During the installation (64bit, version 15.0) I chose that I want to use
> Lilo and LiLo shall be located inside partition (not in MBR).
So, the CPU is 64-bit? Does motherboard have UEFI? |
Laaca

Czech republic, 25.01.2025, 19:52
@ bocke
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > During the installation (64bit, version 15.0) I chose that I want
> to use
> > Lilo and LiLo shall be located inside partition (not in MBR).
>
> So, the CPU is 64-bit? Does motherboard have UEFI?
Yes, 64bit, no UEFI. --- DOS-u-akbar! |
fritz.mueller

Munich, Germany, 25.01.2025, 23:38 (edited by fritz.mueller, 25.01.2025, 23:48)
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > > During the installation (64bit, version 15.0) I chose that I
> want
> > to use
> > > Lilo and LiLo shall be located inside partition (not in MBR).
> >
> > So, the CPU is 64-bit? Does motherboard have UEFI?
>
> Yes, 64bit, no UEFI.
So it is a system with NO UEFI, a HD with less 2 Tb and in about 10 years old?
how big is the HD really? And, do you use IDE HDs or SATA or NVME?
I ask, because maybe I try to reproduce it.
@rr, what is the max size for partitions that is supported by your bootmanager? And does it have to be installed before installing the OSes? Or can I first create the partitons, e.g with fdisk and install your bootmanager later? |
bocke
27.01.2025, 22:11
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> Yes, 64bit, no UEFI.
How does the partition table look like? |
bocke
27.01.2025, 22:14
@ fritz.mueller
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> @rr, what is the max size for partitions that is supported by your
> bootmanager? And does it have to be installed before installing the OSes?
> Or can I first create the partitons, e.g with fdisk and install your
> bootmanager later?
You think the Linux partition is too big or past the location where bootmgr looks for the partitions? |
Laaca

Czech republic, 27.01.2025, 22:45
@ bocke
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
> > Yes, 64bit, no UEFI.
>
> How does the partition table look like?
1) Win10 boot partition (512MB)
2) Win10 main partition (1.7TB)
3) Ext4 partition (67GB)
4) FAT32 partition / FreeDOS (28GB) --- DOS-u-akbar! |
fritz.mueller

Munich, Germany, 29.01.2025, 22:27
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation |
A new installation of all OSes in a virtual machine with Win10 settings (and no old bootmanager) - and it works. But on real machines it is sometimes not so easy.
![[image]](img/uploaded/image84.jpg)
![[image]](img/uploaded/image460.png) |
Laaca

Czech republic, 01.02.2025, 01:24
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation -- SUCCESS ! |
Yes! I got it!
No stupid GRUB, just the old good BOOTMGR by BTTR Software.
I tried several Linux distributions but I got success only with Linux Mint.
![[image]](http://www.laaca.borec.cz/obrazky/bootmgr.jpg) --- DOS-u-akbar! |
bocke
02.02.2025, 15:07
@ Laaca
|
BOOTMGR and new Linux installation -- SUCCESS ! |
> Yes! I got it!
> No stupid GRUB, just the old good BOOTMGR by BTTR Software.
> I tried several Linux distributions but I got success only with Linux
> Mint.
Well, that's great. Linux Mint is a nice distro for people who didn't have much previous Linux experience. Good luck and have fun. :) |