DOS ain't dead

flox 10.08.2008, 11:16 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 released Post reply
	Nice It is available at http://dugl.50webs.com/

FFK

16.08.2008, 01:22
(edited by FFK, 16.08.2008, 04:06)

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

Here a first demo making use of the new Additions of DUGL 1.12
The test is made on a 3Ghz P4 dual core, 1G RAM, DDR400, NV FX5200,
First test is of 2500 trees forest with fog enabled inside a 640x480x16bpp gmode, the second is a 10000! trees forest with fog enabled inside a 1024x768x16bpp gmode.
the demo with source code and compilable with DUGL 1.12 is available at http://www.mediafire.com/?tyzmgs4luld
i'm curious to see how fast will run the two tests on several hardware configs ;-)
[image]

Laaca

Czech republic,
16.08.2008, 13:17

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

Wow! It is really impresive! Nice work. Maybe a fundament for some game in future? ;-)

---
DOS-u-akbar!

FFK

17.08.2008, 03:10

@ Laaca

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> Wow! It is really impresive! Nice work.

thanks :-) how much fps you got in both fog16avg and fog16ext ? What is your hardware config ? i wish not an emulator !

> Maybe a fundament for some game in future? ;-)

Yes it's a proof that we are able to develop an "enough" fast and "enough" beautiful 3D graphics using only a software rendering Lib.
Developing a good 3D engine is not an easy task but it's one of my main goal after developing DUGL. I'm still thinking what would be the best idea for the first DUGL game, so any hint will be appreciated ;-)

Laaca

Czech republic,
17.08.2008, 09:35

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

The test results of fog16avg and fog16ext on my system.
F - fog B - blur

Fog16Avg:
f+b+ 31
f+b- 63
m-b+ 35
m-b- 75

Fog16Ext:
m+b+ 7
m+b- 10
m-b+ 9
m-b- 14

My computer:
CPU AMD 1,3GHz
mainboard VIA VT8363A Apollo KT133A
256MB RAM, type SDRAM
GeForce4 MX 440
FreeDOS, caching of LFB area enabled

And about the game I would like to see? Well, not necessary 3D. Why not something like Desert strike or Firefight?

---
DOS-u-akbar!

FFK 17.08.2008, 21:08 @ Laaca	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	> And about the game I would like to see? Well, not necessary 3D. Why not > something like Desert strike or Firefight? Oops i don't know those 2 games, i played with "Big red racing", "gabriel knight", "warcraft 1", "Xtreme Pinball" ... I will see what i can do with my little free time, but i wish i will make a more modern game with better graphics than old DOS games :)

marcov 18.08.2008, 10:11 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	> > And about the game I would like to see? Well, not necessary 3D. Why not > > something like Desert strike or Firefight? > > Oops i don't know those 2 games, i played with "Big red racing", "gabriel > knight", "warcraft 1", "Xtreme Pinball" ... Warcraft II is still very playable, as are some older Settlers and Heroes of Might... That shows that graphics isn't everything.

Rugxulo

Usono,
18.08.2008, 23:45

@ marcov

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> Warcraft II is still very playable, as are some older Settlers and Heroes
> of Might...
>
> That shows that graphics isn't everything.

At least the Warcraft 1 demo (VGA, DOS/4GW, fits on a floppy) was nice. Never tried 2 (DOS, SVGA), but it looks a good deal better.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/warcraft-ii-tides-of-darkness

P.S. A quick search found that you can run Warcraft 2 at 3840x2160 (via Wargus engine). :-D

[image]

mr 17.08.2008, 22:10 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	Both exe didn't work in DOSBox. fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware. fog16avg.exe was awesome in VMware! 60 FPS Will test it later on real hardware.

mr 17.08.2008, 22:15 @ mr	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	I forgot to add the error messages. > Both exe didn't work in DOSBox. dugl init error > fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware. http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080817220316gb8.png

FFK

17.08.2008, 23:36

@ mr

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> I forgot to add the error messages.
>
> > Both exe didn't work in DOSBox.
>
> dugl init error
>
> > fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware.
>
> http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080817220316gb8.png

fog16ext.exe needs about 5MB of RAM to work. Maybe you configured VMWare with less than that ?
Have you tested another graphic application using 1024x768x16bpp VESA graphic mode ?
There is only two changes betweeen fog16avg and fog16ext :
-graphic mode from 640x480x16bpp to 1024x768x16bpp
-the static allocation of 10000 tree instead of 2500 trees, maybe i have to change this into a dynamic malloc.

mr

18.08.2008, 08:09

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> fog16ext.exe needs about 5MB of RAM to work. Maybe you configured VMWare
> with less than that ?

No, 128 MB.

> Have you tested another graphic application using 1024x768x16bpp VESA
> graphic mode ?

Yes.

> There is only two changes betweeen fog16avg and fog16ext :
> -graphic mode from 640x480x16bpp to 1024x768x16bpp
> -the static allocation of 10000 tree instead of 2500 trees, maybe i have
> to change this into a dynamic malloc.

No idea, VMware seams not be optimal for DOS anyway.

Rugxulo Usono, 17.08.2008, 22:52 @ mr	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	> Both exe didn't work in DOSBox. > fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware. DUGL requires an MMX-aware cpu, which DOSBox (486DX2) doesn't support. I did get both examples to work in QEMU (but very very slow!). Obviously, that was discouraged, so I intend to test again later today. EDIT, if you (FFK) ever do write a game, be sure to use something like DUMB for some good sound module tunes.

mr 17.08.2008, 23:22 @ Rugxulo	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	> > Both exe didn't work in DOSBox. > > fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware. > > DUGL requires an MMX-aware cpu, which DOSBox (486DX2) doesn't support. Ok. @FFK: I think some kind of error handling and a meaningful error message (like mmx cpu feature missing).

FFK 17.08.2008, 23:45 @ mr	DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo Post reply
	> @FFK: > I think some kind of error handling and a meaningful error message (like > mmx cpu feature missing). Yes we need a function like DUGLError which return the ID of the last error. this will be on my todo.

FFK

17.08.2008, 23:41

@ Rugxulo

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> > Both exe didn't work in DOSBox.
> > fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware.
>
> DUGL requires an MMX-aware cpu, which DOSBox (486DX2) doesn't support.

Right

> I did get both examples to work in QEMU (but very very slow!). Obviously,
> that was discouraged, so I intend to test again later today. ;-)

Yes MMX emulation make DUGL ultra slow instead of increasing speed on real hardware. Did the QEMU Accelerator Module was enabled when you made the test ?

> EDIT, if you (FFK) ever do write a game, be sure to use something like
> DUMB for some
> good sound module tunes. ;-)

Does it provide a low level hardware driver ? or it's a sound mixer-player that require a working sound driver layer ?

Rugxulo

Usono,
18.08.2008, 04:47

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> Yes MMX emulation make DUGL ultra slow instead of increasing speed on real
> hardware. Did the QEMU Accelerator Module was enabled when you made the
> test ?

Yes, KQEMU was enabled for user code (by default as Windows service, I think), but half the time I'm unsure if that even makes a difference. Easily too slow to be usable in such a case, though (except where speed doesn't matter, e.g. card games).

Anyways, I tried again on two different computers (real hardware this time):

* bro's late model P2 Celeron 366 Mhz "Mendocino", 128 MB RAM, Intel 810 VESA 2.0
(neither .EXE worked, probably monitor/display issue, I dunno)
(running under DOSEMU there also didn't work, heh)
* my AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz "Tyler" laptop, 1 GB RAM, VESA 3.0 NVIDIA (GeForce Go 6100 ?)
(70 and 13 FPS before VESAMTRR ... 100 and 15 FPS after VESAMTRR)

FYI, in case anyone else wants to test, here's a FreeDOS 1.44 MB floppy .IMG (plus .ISO for those lacking a floppy-drive):

http://rugxulo.googlepages.com/dugltest.7z

> > EDIT, if you (FFK) ever do write a game, be sure to use something like
> > DUMB for
> some
> > good sound module tunes. ;-)
>
> Does it provide a low level hardware driver ? or it's a sound mixer-player
> that require a working sound driver layer ?

AFAICT, it has a demo program which works with plain SB, but it's portable, so it should be adjustable too. It optionally works with Allegro, as a plugin, and has an OGG add-on. (I'm not too familiar with it, to be honest, just quoting the site's About page. But .MOD music would be awesome in any future game.)

FFK

20.08.2008, 02:26

@ Rugxulo

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> * bro's late model P2 Celeron 366 Mhz "Mendocino", 128 MB RAM, Intel 810
> VESA 2.0
> (neither .EXE worked, probably monitor/display issue, I dunno)
> (running under DOSEMU there also didn't work, heh)

I made a small googling, and on the forum of ReactOS i found that Intel 810 VESA Bios has an issue with LFB !

> * my AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz "Tyler" laptop, 1 GB RAM, VESA 3.0 NVIDIA (GeForce Go
> 6100 ?)
> (70 and 13 FPS before VESAMTRR ... 100 and 15 FPS after VESAMTRR)

you mean ?
fog16ext 13fps before VESAMTRR and 70fps after
fog16avg 15fps " " " 100fps "

If so it seems that the AMD is much more efficient than my intel dual core 3ghz CPU as it's nearly half of Ghz and only ~ 30% slower

> FYI, in case anyone else wants to test, here's a FreeDOS 1.44 MB floppy
> .IMG (plus .ISO for those lacking a floppy-drive):
>
> http://rugxulo.googlepages.com/dugltest.7z

I tried the ISO and he tries to deflate inside a f:\temp\ which does not exist.

> AFAICT, it has a demo program which works with plain SB, but it's
> portable, so it should be adjustable too. It optionally works with
> Allegro, as a plugin, and has an OGG add-on. (I'm not too familiar with
> it, to be honest, just quoting the site's About page. But .MOD music would
> be awesome in any future game.)

It seems that the coming game will stay silent until i found a true solution to enable sound. There is a contributer who was willing to develop more sound driver with the DUGL sound driver format, but nothing happened since more than 5 months :-(

Rugxulo

Usono,
20.08.2008, 04:02

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> > * my AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz "Tyler" laptop, 1 GB RAM, VESA 3.0 NVIDIA (GeForce
> Go
> > 6100 ?)
> > (70 and 13 FPS before VESAMTRR ... 100 and 15 FPS after VESAMTRR)
>
> you mean ?
> fog16ext 13fps before VESAMTRR and 70fps after
> fog16avg 15fps " " " 100fps "

No, 13 becomes 15 while 70 becomes 100. So, the simple (2500 trees) example shows better improvement.

> If so it seems that the AMD is much more efficient than my intel dual core
> 3ghz CPU as it's nearly half of Ghz and only ~ 30% slower

Ghz means nothing anymore, but yes, Intel's latest cpus really do outshine some / most AMD cpus by a noticeable amount. Is yours a Pentium D or Core or Core 2? The latter are much faster.

> I tried the ISO and he tries to deflate inside a f:\temp\ which does not
> exist.

I rechecked and couldn't find any trace of that, so I dunno. Just try "7za e ...", and see if that helps.

> It seems that the coming game will stay silent until i found a true
> solution to enable sound. There is a contributer who was willing to
> develop more sound driver with the DUGL sound driver format, but nothing
> happened since more than 5 months :-(

I've got an AWE64 if you want help testing that (although I highly doubt I'd be useful in the coding department). Probably not feasible, but just FYI. ;-)

FFK

23.08.2008, 04:12

@ Rugxulo

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

>
> Ghz means nothing anymore, but yes, Intel's latest cpus really do outshine
> some / most AMD cpus by a noticeable amount. Is yours a Pentium D or Core
> or Core 2? The latter are much faster.

A Pentium D 925 3Ghz 2MB cache.

> I rechecked and couldn't find any trace of that, so I dunno. Just try "7za
> e ...", and see if that helps.

Worked with HimemX and JEMM386.

> I've got an AWE64 if you want help testing that (although I highly doubt
> I'd be useful in the coding department). Probably not feasible, but just
> FYI. ;-)

It's compatible SB16 ? do the sound in "avent" sample work for you if so ?

Rugxulo

Usono,
23.08.2008, 17:45

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> >
> > Ghz means nothing anymore, but yes, Intel's latest cpus really do
> outshine
> > some / most AMD cpus by a noticeable amount. Is yours a Pentium D or
> Core
> > or Core 2? The latter are much faster.
>
> A Pentium D 925 3Ghz 2MB cache.

Well, you're still beating my chops, so your cpu must be good. ;-)

> > I've got an AWE64 if you want help testing that
>
> It's compatible SB16 ? do the sound in "avent" sample work for you if so ?

"avent" doesn't work because of "VESA error" (even with or without UNIVBE VESA 3.0, the card is a wimpy ATI Mach64 1 MB VRAM VESA 1.2) although that cpu (P166 32 MB RAM) doesn't have MMX, so maybe it wouldn't work anyways. If you really wanted to code up a sound-only example, I'd test it for you.

It's more-or-less SB compatible. I think the BIOS (AMI) initializes some of it, so typical .WAV (digital?) output works. But Adlib stuff (e.g. BioMenace music) won't work unless I load some official pseudo TSR drivers (CTCM, etc) because of PnP or whatever.

Laaca

Czech republic,
23.08.2008, 18:00

@ Rugxulo

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

AWE64 is fully compatible with SB16 and with Adlib too. Problem is with Roland MPU-401 MIDI stuff. It isn't compatible in hardware level with it but you can load some driver (I don't remember the name from head but it isn't CTCM). However the driver is not always compatible with all DOS extenders.

(CTCM is only configuration manager. It assignes DMA and IRQ resources on computers with non-PnP BIOSes)

---
DOS-u-akbar!

FFK

26.08.2008, 02:12

@ Rugxulo

DUGL Plus 486+ sound example

Post reply

> "avent" doesn't work because of "VESA error" (even with or without UNIVBE
> VESA 3.0, the card is a wimpy ATI Mach64 1 MB VRAM VESA 1.2) although that
> cpu (P166 32 MB RAM) doesn't have MMX, so maybe it wouldn't work anyways.
> If you really wanted to code up a sound-only example, I'd test it for
> you.

Here the link to a very simple example, it worked for me under Qemu as i don't
have any more an SB16 compatible hardware :-(
http://www.mediafire.com/?ouhfy2jzm4j

Rugxulo Usono, 28.08.2008, 04:15 @ FFK	DUGL Plus 486+ sound example Post reply
	> Here the link to a very simple example, it worked for me under Qemu as i > don't > have any more an SB16 compatible hardware > http://www.mediafire.com/?ouhfy2jzm4j Yeah, it works fine on AWE64 (albeit somewhat quietly, looks like you set the default volume a little too low for my tastes). So SB16.DRV from DUGL works for simple .WAV playback.

Laaca

Czech republic,
18.08.2008, 14:47

@ mr

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

What a horrible thread!
Comrades - we are in DOS forum not in DOS-emulators forum. Why don't you use the real DOS on real machine?

---
DOS-u-akbar!

DOS386

20.08.2008, 07:56

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 first 3D Forest demo

Post reply

> Here a first demo making use of the new Additions of DUGL 1.12
> First test is of 2500 trees forest with fog enabled inside a 640x480x16bpp

COOL :-) The shot is missleading, it neglects the fact that you fly over the forest. :-D

Mr wrote:

> Both exe didn't work in DOSBox.
> fog16ext.exe didn't work in VMware.

Seems to be a feature. :lol3: For me it works in DOS.

Laaca wrote:

> What a horrible thread!
> Comrades - we are in DOS forum not in DOS-emulators
> forum. Why don't you use the real DOS on real machine?

Couldn't agree more :hungry:

> Maybe a fundament for some game in future?

Indeed.

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

mr 17.08.2008, 21:51 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 released Post reply
	Hi FFK, nice to meet you here! Couldn't find your e-mail address. I wanted to register in your forums, it's damn slow but I managed to register and login. Somehow I don't get a verification since e-mail since 3 hours but my e-mail address correct and working. Can you activate my account manually? Username is mr_. -mr

FFK

17.08.2008, 23:51

@ mr

DUGL 1.12 released

Post reply

Hello mr,

It's nice to meet you too :-)
Sorry for inconvenience the forum is ultra slow i'm thinking to change to Nabble for example, with the price of losing all the old posts :-(

> Somehow I don't get a verification since e-mail since 3 hours but my
> e-mail address correct and working. Can you activate my account manually?
> Username is mr_.

I enabled your account manually and disabled the need of email verification to register. I hope you will be able to access the forum and contact me now :-)

FFK

mr

18.08.2008, 18:15

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 released

Post reply

> Sorry for inconvenience the forum is ultra slow i'm thinking to change to
> Nabble for example, with the price of losing all the old posts :-(

Imho free hosting without database access where you can't make a backup yourself is always a bad thing because you get somehow addicted.

You may ask bttr if them would give your "real" hosting (inclusive database updates) or you may also ask the Nevasca project if them would host it (good forum software and likely to get database backups).

FFK 20.08.2008, 02:14 @ mr	DUGL 1.12 released Post reply
	> You may ask bttr if them would give your "real" hosting (inclusive > database updates) or you may also ask the Nevasca project if them would > host it (good forum software and likely to get database backups). We might talk here temporarily at least, the forum was good 2 months ago. Now he is nearly dead and i hope they will resolve their problem soon.

mr 18.08.2008, 18:18 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 released Post reply
	Btw I agree, loosing all posts would be bad because there are interesting discussions already...

mr 18.08.2008, 18:37 @ FFK	DUGL 1.12 released Post reply
	> Sorry for inconvenience the forum is ultra slow Well, I posted something but now its loading forever. I think it's virtually unusable. I would like to see a working upcoming because there are still things I would like to post. ;)

rr

Berlin, Germany,
18.08.2008, 20:26

@ mr

DUGL 1.12 released

Post reply

> nice to meet you here! Couldn't find your e-mail address.

You could have used this forum to send a private message to him. :-) Just go to the user area, select FFK, click "Personal message to FFK".

---
Forum admin

DOS386

28.08.2008, 05:53

@ FFK

DUGL 1.12 released | available at

Post reply

> is available at http://dugl.50webs.com/
> is available at http://www.mediafire.com/?tyzmgs4luld

D1.11 D1.12

---
This is a LOGITECH mouse driver, but some software expect here
the following string:*** This is Copyright 1983 Microsoft ***

DUGL 1.12 released (Announce)

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DUGL Plus 486+ sound example

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DUGL 1.12 released | available at