DOS ain't dead - Windows 10 NTVDM

RayeR

CZ,
31.07.2015, 22:56
(edited by RayeR, 01.08.2015, 03:57)

Windows 10 NTVDM (Users)

Hi, I just tried to install new Win10 32-bit from current official ISO inside VM and encountered problems with running some windows and DOS programs. After you run 1st DOS program, the system ask you that NTVDM component needs to be installed. After click OK it installs (it's already on HDD, just disabled) and program runs. But I can run only *.exe programs (including DOS/DJGPP so DPMI is still there) but not *.com programs - they cause this NTVDM error: http://rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/w10d.png
On other hand I'm happy that my unsigned kernel driver installed and by tools like spipgm, cpuid and smb runs without problem (when run as admin). BTW I don't plan to upgrade to W10, I was just curious...

UPDATE:
I found that only some *.com and *.exe program cause problems. Strange that there's different behavior when the program is launched from cmd.exe - it crash and directly from explorer or shortcut on desktop or Win+R - it starts OK. I tried both cmd.exe in user and admin mode - no difference.
http://rayer.g6.cz/1tmp/w10f.png
Of course programs using VGA graphics modes are not supported in any case.

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

alexfru USA, 01.08.2015, 09:43 @ RayeR	Windows 10 NTVDM Post reply
	I'm surprised NTVDM still exists in Windows. And I'm surprised Microsoft is still making 32-bit Windows (they stopped making 32-bit server editions as of Server 2008 or 2012). But I'm not surprised to hear of new NTVDM problems. Clearly, DOS support isn't a priority (it hasn't been since Vista), not even a low one, and NTVDM receives little testing and support.

RayeR

CZ,
03.08.2015, 15:41

@ alexfru

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

Maybe they want to support older mobile devices with 32b-only Atoms, as "mobile" is MS mantra now...
I understand there's very little effort to test and support NTVDM subsystem but I wouldn't expect such obvious bugs. It would be nice if they don't touch the working code as possible...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

alexfru

USA,
04.08.2015, 06:35

@ RayeR

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

> Maybe they want to support older mobile devices with 32b-only Atoms, as
> "mobile" is MS mantra now...
> I understand there's very little effort to test and support NTVDM subsystem
> but I wouldn't expect such obvious bugs. It would be nice if they don't
> touch the working code as possible...

You wish. But I'm speaking from actual experience working at the company. If it's a show stopper or a big security hole, it will get due attention. But if it's something down the list of dozens and hundreds and thousands of mundane things, you're out of luck. Your bug will be shipped. It may be fixed later, but it may just as well not, because when it's somewhere at the bottom of the list of all the things to be fixed and when you have another list of all the new things to be implemented... You get the idea. What to change and what to fix, especially close to the release date, goes through the triage process, where managers, developers and testers (re)asses the risks and the costs of making a change and not making it. Finding a security twist of a bug helps get it fixed. But if it's something insignificant, you can forget about it. It will be buried as "won't fix" in the bug tracking system forever and will live on in the product. About the only chance when it can be fixed (or replaced with another bug) is when the buggy code gets thrown away and replaced with something else. Throwing code away doesn't happen too often. But as a user I can definitely relate to your experience. Part of the reason why I worked at the company is that I had this dream of making the system better. But I clearly didn't get many of the "obvious" (or rather, as I put it, shameful) bugs fixed.

RayeR

CZ,
04.08.2015, 18:43

@ alexfru

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

What company you work for, do you mean, Micro$oft? :-P
Yes understand what you write. This is also why I don't seek big companies in general. I'm happy to work in s small company where I have my projects under control, not just doing a 0,0...% part of big mastodont.
BTW if we are talking about security, W10 is full of spyware, sharing, clouds, online forcing leaving less control for user over system with every newer version. Also I don't doubt that NSA have some backdoors (Hacking team also knows)...

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DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

marcov

04.08.2015, 19:30

@ RayeR

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

> W10 is full of spyware, sharing,
> clouds, online forcing leaving less control for user over system with every
> newer version. Also I don't doubt that NSA have some backdoors (Hacking
> team also knows)...

Well, at least W10 allows to put the W8 start screen back. The new startscreen is harder to navigate then the old.

Now I only have to find a way to reroute win-I [enter] to the control panel instead of the metro settings

alexfru

USA,
06.08.2015, 06:41

@ RayeR

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

> What company you work for, do you mean, Micro$oft? :-P

Worked (2005-2011), but not anymore.

> Yes understand what you write. This is also why I don't seek big companies
> in general. I'm happy to work in s small company where I have my projects
> under control, not just doing a 0,0...% part of big mastodont.

Small companies (smaller than Microsoft) don't always shield you from huge things and don't always give you control over your project. It so happens that while I am not working for Google, I'm working on the guts of Android, which is no small thing and you can forget about controlling it. :)

> BTW if we are talking about security, W10 is full of spyware, sharing,
> clouds, online forcing leaving less control for user over system with every
> newer version.

It looks like it has at least one big security problem (already in the news). Other than that I don't know for sure and can only speculate.

> Also I don't doubt that NSA have some backdoors (Hacking
> team also knows)...

You don't have to have special backdoors. I'm fairly certain, the agencies have Windows source code and the necessary tools to find and exploit the existing vulnerabilities and so does the hacking community (except for the Windows source code, I'd presume, although in theory there could be leaks from the users of the Microsoft academic programs, through which you can get the code).

Guti

15.08.2015, 09:14

@ alexfru

Windows 10 NTVDM

Post reply

> I'm surprised NTVDM still exists in Windows.
> And I'm surprised Microsoft is still making 32-bit Windows (they stopped
> making 32-bit server editions as of Server 2008 or 2012).
> But I'm not surprised to hear of new NTVDM problems. Clearly, DOS support
> isn't a priority (it hasn't been since Vista), not even a low one, and
> NTVDM receives little testing and support.

AFAIK, Windows 10 will be latest Windows available in 32 bit flavours.

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Rugxulo Usono, 16.08.2015, 04:18 @ Guti	Windows 10 NTVDM Post reply
	> AFAIK, Windows 10 will be latest Windows available in 32 bit flavours. Isn't that already fairly obvious by now? Windows 8/8.1/10 already require a late-model P4 (due to NX bit).