DOS ain't dead - Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Laaca

Czech republic,
30.10.2020, 22:01

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List? (Developers)

As Japheth extended the syntax for call INT 15h/AX=87h it is needed to be well documented. The Bible for DOS programmers is the Ralf Brown's interrupt list. The current version was released in july/2000.
At the present days we usually use the HTML version here.

I am not sure who is the maintainer and whether is he active or not but this API extension should be tracked at least into this HTML version.
And maybe it should be extended much more - for USB API from Bret Johnson's package and maybe many other things. (from hardware topics at least some basics of ACPI)

---
DOS-u-akbar!

RayeR

CZ,
31.10.2020, 01:33

@ Laaca

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

Good idea, did you tried to contact Marc via mail?

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

awik

18.11.2020, 15:31

@ RayeR

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> Good idea, did you tried to contact Marc via mail?

Assuming you mean Marc Perkel, I think trying to contact him would be pointless, for the following reason.

I was going to write him about something, but while investigating, I came to learn that he passed away from lung cancer on 1 Aug 2018.

https://eideard.com/2018/08/27/remembering-marc-perkel/

I doubt he appointed anyone to continue maintenance of his RBIL site.

On another note, I e-mailed Ralf Brown recently, but I have not received a response.

-Albert.

Laaca

Czech republic,
18.11.2020, 19:17

@ awik

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > Good idea, did you tried to contact Marc via mail?
>
> Assuming you mean Marc Perkel, I think trying to contact him would be
> pointless, for the following reason.
>
> I was going to write him about something, but while investigating, I came
> to learn that he passed away from lung cancer on 1 Aug 2018.
>
> https://eideard.com/2018/08/27/remembering-marc-perkel/
>
> I doubt he appointed anyone to continue maintenance of his RBIL site.
>
> On another note, I e-mailed Ralf Brown recently, but I have not received a
> response.
>
> -Albert.

Yes, it seems that RBIL is dead. No Marc Perkel, no Ralf Brown haven't answered me to my email.
Why Marc haven't in now clear from your post. But neither Ralf Brown answered.
Now is here a risk that after Marc Perkel's death his HTML version will disappear because nobody will pay the payments for web hosting.
It is a topic for discussion whether the community around FreeDOS should move the HTML version of RBIL on the FreeDOS domain and in this new place to add a new extensions.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

RayeR

CZ,
18.11.2020, 20:11

@ awik

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

Aha, I didn't know...
So then you can pick up the most recent RBIL version, migrate it to another web (could be hosted e.g. at freedos server?) and start with updates...

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

awik 19.11.2020, 07:26 @ RayeR	Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List? Post reply
	> Aha, I didn't know... > So then you can pick up the most recent RBIL version, migrate it to another > web (could be hosted e.g. at freedos server?) and start with updates... Is there a HTML converter somewhere? -Albert.

Berlin, Germany,
23.11.2020, 21:05

@ awik

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > Aha, I didn't know...
> > So then you can pick up the most recent RBIL version, migrate it to
> another
> > web (could be hosted e.g. at freedos server?) and start with updates...
>
> Is there a HTML converter somewhere?

See aforementioned RBILtoHTML. Lazarus source code on: https://gitlab.com/DOSx86/rbil2html

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tkchia

08.05.2021, 10:51

@ awik

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

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Hello awik,

> On another note, I e-mailed Ralf Brown recently, but I have not received a
> response.

"Mercury Thirteen" just shared some interesting news:

"A quick side-note; I sent Ralf a quick email a while back simply asking if he was still accepting updates to the RBIL and he kindly affirmed he was, although he did indicate slight surprise that anyone was working on new DOS applications these days and would be interested in contributing additional data . :)"

---
https://gitlab.com/tkchia · https://codeberg.org/tkchia · 😴 "MOV AX,0D500H+CMOS_REG_D+NMI"

tom

Germany (West),
08.05.2021, 11:03
(edited by tom, 08.05.2021, 11:19)

@ tkchia

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> Hello awik,
>
> > On another note, I e-mailed Ralf Brown recently, but I have not received
> a
> > response.
>
> "Mercury Thirteen" just
> shared
> some interesting news:
>
> "A quick side-note; I sent Ralf a quick email a while back simply asking if
> he was still accepting updates to the RBIL

unfortunately, he fails to mention what "a while back". last year or last century.

I am not aware of any update since 2000. and he has probably been asked often ;-)

DosWorld

31.10.2020, 11:10

@ Laaca

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> As Japheth extended the syntax for call INT 15h/AX=87h it is needed to be
> well documented. The Bible for DOS programmers is the Ralf Brown's
> interrupt list. The current version was released in july/2000.

Note: RBIL, also, was distributed into TechHelp format.

TechHelp - hypertext help system (propriertal). File format is binary, seems like early HTML (have cross-links between articles). Have comfortable resident viewer.

---
Make DOS great again!

Carthago delenda est, Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse.

marcov

01.11.2020, 23:38

@ DosWorld

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > As Japheth extended the syntax for call INT 15h/AX=87h it is needed to
> be
> > well documented. The Bible for DOS programmers is the Ralf Brown's
> > interrupt list. The current version was released in july/2000.
>
> Note: RBIL, also, was distributed into TechHelp format.

Yeah, there were several formats. Does sb know what the master format is?

> TechHelp - hypertext help system (propriertal). File format is binary,
> seems like early HTML (have cross-links between articles). Have comfortable
> resident viewer.

A conversion app to .CHM maybe could be done from html or a more abstract master.

tkchia

03.11.2020, 11:36

@ marcov

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

Hello marcov,

> > Note: RBIL, also, was distributed into TechHelp format.

> Yeah, there were several formats. Does sb know what the master format is?

Ralf Brown's web site at CMU has a page with the latest version (16 July 2000) of the Interrupt List: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ralf/files.html .

The master format is plain text, but laid out in a special way, presumably to make automatic processing easier. You can read the master format directly (which I do).

I am not sure if the good Doctor will still be willing to accept change requests for the RBIL, after all these years.

Thank you!

---
https://gitlab.com/tkchia · https://codeberg.org/tkchia · 😴 "MOV AX,0D500H+CMOS_REG_D+NMI"

Laaca

Czech republic,
04.11.2020, 19:32

@ tkchia

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> I am not sure if the good Doctor will still be willing to accept change
> requests for the RBIL, after all these years.
>
> Thank you!

Well, we will see. I just send emails to Ralf Brown and to Marc Perkel and we will wait for their responses.

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Rugxulo

Usono,
06.11.2020, 03:36

@ Laaca

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > I am not sure if the good Doctor will still be willing to accept change
> > requests for the RBIL, after all these years.
>
> Well, we will see. I just send emails to Ralf Brown and to Marc Perkel and
> we will wait for their responses.

Jerome Shidel (of FreeDOS fame) has been working on his own RBILtoHTML, if anyone is curious. I don't know if it's truly finished, but he did email a few of us, roughly two months ago, about it.

marcov

06.11.2020, 09:48

@ Rugxulo

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > > I am not sure if the good Doctor will still be willing to accept
> change
> > > requests for the RBIL, after all these years.
> >
> > Well, we will see. I just send emails to Ralf Brown and to Marc Perkel
> and
> > we will wait for their responses.
>
> Jerome Shidel (of FreeDOS fame) has been working on his own
> RBILtoHTML, if anyone is curious. I
> don't know if it's truly finished, but he did email a few of us, roughly
> two months ago, about it.

Oh, and in Lazarus even. Looks pretty solid.

Probably could be easily modified to output CHM. Thing is, I reacted a bit quick. CHM is particularly good if you have a big index that you use a lot (e.g. context info in the IDE or context sensitive help). RBIL has multiple indexes etc, and keyword based help is not very useful.

That would mean it would be hard to integrate in IDEs with the standard support, and you'd need extensions.

Berlin, Germany,
06.11.2020, 18:42

@ marcov

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> Oh, and in Lazarus even. Looks pretty solid.
>
> Probably could be easily modified to output CHM. Thing is, I reacted a bit
> quick. CHM is particularly good if you have a big index that you use a lot
> (e.g. context info in the IDE or context sensitive help). RBIL has multiple
> indexes etc, and keyword based help is not very useful.
>
> That would mean it would be hard to integrate in IDEs with the standard
> support, and you'd need extensions.

Don't forget Part F of RBIL: https://github.com/cirosantilli/ralf-brown-interrupt-list/tree/master/inter61f

IL2ME102.ZIP convert list into Multi-Edit help database INT2RTF.ZIP Slava Gostrenko's converter INT2WHLP.ZIP converter by Christian Müller-Planitz / Bent Lynggaard INT2GUID.ZIP convert list into TurboPower GUIDE or POPHELP database INT2HLP.ZIP convert list into QuickHelp database INT2IPF.ZIP convert list into OS/2 .IPF file INT2QH.ZIP convert list into QuickHelp database INT2TPH.ZIP convert to Borland THELP/Borl.Pascal help file (.TPH) RB2NG116.ZIP convert list into Norton Guides database

All except IL2ME come with sources.

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Rugxulo Usono, 08.11.2020, 17:40 @ marcov	Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List? Post reply
	> > Jerome Shidel (of FreeDOS fame) has been working on his own > > RBILtoHTML > > Oh, and in Lazarus even. Looks pretty solid. I don't remember any of the URLs offhand, nor which email pointed to some of them, but Jerome is a Pascal fiend! So he has lots of cool code lying around. Try checking his Github (or email him), if morbidly curious.

Berlin, Germany,
06.11.2020, 18:21

@ DosWorld

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> > As Japheth extended the syntax for call INT 15h/AX=87h it is needed to
> be
> > well documented. The Bible for DOS programmers is the Ralf Brown's
> > interrupt list. The current version was released in july/2000.
>
> Note: RBIL, also, was distributed into TechHelp format.
>
> TechHelp - hypertext help system (propriertal). File format is binary,
> seems like early HTML (have cross-links between articles). Have comfortable
> resident viewer.

Some online copy is at http://www.techhelpmanual.com/ or https://dos4gw.org/

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andrewbird

Cornwall, UK,
31.10.2020, 11:20

@ Laaca

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> As Japheth extended the syntax for call INT 15h/AX=87h it is needed to be
> well documented. The Bible for DOS programmers is the Ralf Brown's
> interrupt list. The current version was released in july/2000.
> At the present days we usually use the HTML version
> here.
>
> I am not sure who is the maintainer and whether is he active or not but
> this API extension should be tracked at least into this HTML version.
> And maybe it should be extended much more - for USB API from Bret Johnson's
> package and maybe many other things. (from hardware topics at least some
> basics of ACPI)

Interesting, I was thinking myself about some way of using RBIL programmatically, say as a tooltip in a debugger. Perhaps some easily maintainable intermediate format could be used both for that and to generate documentation? I wonder what the best format would be, XML?

bretjohn

Rio Rancho, NM,
31.10.2020, 15:55

@ Laaca

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

This could open up a really big can of worms. We owe a great debt to Ralf Brown (and all the others who helped him put the list together and maintain it). If it weren't for RBIL, DOS/FreeDOS would not be nearly as far along as it is. RBIL is the "Bible" that everybody uses to write their programs. It is BY FAR the most accurate and complete source of information there is even though it hasn't been updated in a VERY long time. There is even a LOT of information in there that people found by trial-and-error (bugs, secret/hidden functions, etc.) and not just reprints of the "official" documentation.

The can of worms is going to be finding a person or group of people willing to maintain the data. That is a HUGE commitment. I would definitely like to see it happen, but the amount of work required to just gather the missing years of data is far more more than I think most people even realize. In addition to the few things you mentioned, there really needs to be information on all the technology changes and "standards" that have been developed over the last twenty years (CPUs, disks & disk formats, memory, BIOS & EFI & UEFI, virtualization, networking, etc.), just to name a few.

If someone wants to take the lead on this, I'm sure many others would be willing to help, including me to at least a small extent. But I think this really needs to be almost a religious commitment on somebody's part (like it was for Ralf) and not just limited to a few items that one particular person would like to see.

RayeR

CZ,
01.11.2020, 22:52

@ bretjohn

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

I think that it doesn't need to be filled by all the info about UEFI nad latest CPU regs. because they are covered in its standards. Question is how many DOS programmers would need interact with UEFI, probably not many and they sould kow about uefi.org. But if someone, e.g. Japheth, creates some INT services extension that is not covered by big organisation specs then other DOS programmers may not get know about them, so in this case it would be helpfull to have it documented in RBIL.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

andrewbird

Cornwall, UK,
25.11.2020, 01:01

@ bretjohn

Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List?

Post reply

> This could open up a really big can of worms. We owe a great debt to Ralf
> Brown (and all the others who helped him put the list together and maintain
> it). If it weren't for RBIL, DOS/FreeDOS would not be nearly as far along
> as it is. RBIL is the "Bible" that everybody uses to write their programs.
> It is BY FAR the most accurate and complete source of information there is
> even though it hasn't been updated in a VERY long time. There is even a
> LOT of information in there that people found by trial-and-error (bugs,
> secret/hidden functions, etc.) and not just reprints of the "official"
> documentation.
>
> The can of worms is going to be finding a person or group of people willing
> to maintain the data. That is a HUGE commitment. I would definitely like
> to see it happen, but the amount of work required to just gather the
> missing years of data is far more more than I think most people even
> realize. In addition to the few things you mentioned, there really needs
> to be information on all the technology changes and "standards" that have
> been developed over the last twenty years (CPUs, disks & disk formats,
> memory, BIOS & EFI & UEFI, virtualization, networking, etc.), just to name
> a few.
>
> If someone wants to take the lead on this, I'm sure many others would be
> willing to help, including me to at least a small extent. But I think this
> really needs to be almost a religious commitment on somebody's part (like
> it was for Ralf) and not just limited to a few items that one particular
> person would like to see.

I found what I think is a really nice way of representing register expectations and returns here [image]
Does anyone know if there's a generic term for these or software to produce them?

Thanks

andrewbird Cornwall, UK, 25.11.2020, 01:03 @ andrewbird	Update of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List? Post reply
	> I found what I think is a really nice way of representing register > expectations and returns here > . Does > anyone know if there's a generic term for these or software to produce > them? Sorry that the image wasn't rendered inline, here's the http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/dpmi/api/310c00.html

Berlin, Germany,
29.01.2021, 23:44

@ Laaca

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

Although I'm probably the only one on this planet, who still uses IntSum for viewing RBIL in DOS, I created an updated version (v1.7) now. See https://github.com/bttrx/IntSum

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ecm

Düsseldorf, Germany,
30.01.2021, 00:11

@ rr

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

> Although I'm probably the only one on this planet, who still uses IntSum
> for viewing RBIL in DOS, I created an updated version (v1.7) now. See
> https://github.com/bttrx/IntSum

Oh, neat, I may try that. I'm still using rbilview (a MSW 16 application, without sources I believe), and I've considered rolling my own viewer based on traclist. May use this one if it's good. Only downside is it (currently) needs a Microsoft compiler and assembler to build.

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l

Berlin, Germany,
31.01.2021, 12:04

@ ecm

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

> > Although I'm probably the only one on this planet, who still uses IntSum
> > for viewing RBIL in DOS, I created an updated version (v1.7) now. See
> > https://github.com/bttrx/IntSum
>
> Oh, neat, I may try that. I'm still using rbilview (a MSW 16 application,
> without sources I believe), and I've considered rolling my own viewer based
> on traclist. May use this one if it's good. Only downside is it (currently)
> needs a Microsoft compiler and assembler to build.

IntSum is a very basic viewer, but it works fine (and fast) for me. Never tried RBILVIEW.

Yes, toolchain is commercial, but it's probably not worth the efforts to convert to OW/(J)WASM.

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Laaca

Czech republic,
31.01.2021, 14:43

@ rr

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

But we need not only viewer but a real editor.
Imagine that you want to extend a description of some INT by a new table. You have to ensure that all links in the document will remain untouched (without lot of manual editing)

---
DOS-u-akbar!

Berlin, Germany,
31.01.2021, 17:52

@ Laaca

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

> But we need not only viewer but a real editor.
> Imagine that you want to extend a description of some INT by a new table.
> You have to ensure that all links in the document will remain untouched
> (without lot of manual editing)

One can still buy the Epsilon editor used by Ralf back in the days. 250 bucks only. :-D

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Berlin, Germany,
06.02.2021, 22:23

@ rr

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

> Although I'm probably the only one on this planet, who still uses IntSum
> for viewing RBIL in DOS, I created an updated version (v1.7) now. See
> https://github.com/bttrx/IntSum

v1.8 is out now.

Changes:
- Fix sometimes displaying garbage on "Enter filename to save to" prompt on startup.
- Make use of, so far unused, INI file BORDER setting.
- Add NC 3.0-inspired color scheme to INTSUM.INI.
- Exported topics will no longer have trailing blanks.
- Remove old license text from INTSUM.TXT and help screen. (Also fixes GitHub URL not showing on help screen.)
- Add section "Keyboard commands" to INTSUM.TXT.

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Berlin, Germany,
08.02.2021, 23:28

@ rr

Daniel D. Miller's IntSum (INTSUM.EXE)

Post reply

> > Although I'm probably the only one on this planet, who still uses IntSum
> > for viewing RBIL in DOS, I created an updated version (v1.7) now. See
> > https://github.com/bttrx/IntSum
>
> v1.8 is out now.

Updated to v1.9.

Changes:
- Change from custom public-domain license to public-domain-equivalent BSD Zero Clause license.
- Remake help screen accordingly.
- To have two more lines of space for displaying data from the Interrupt List, remove version/copyright banner + divider.
- Fix detail listing not printing filename after returning from help screen.
- Add short section "Technical support" to INTSUM.TXT.
- Convert dates to ISO 8601 format (YYYY-MM-DD) in INTSUM.REV.

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