DOS ain't dead

RayeR

CZ,
26.11.2007, 13:06

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> XDMA32 is based on J.R. Ellis' XDMA v3.3. SATA support has been added and
> some bugs were fixed. Most BIOSes nowadays support Ultra-DMA, but

When you enabled SATA support do you think if also ITE8211 IDE controller will work? With Jack's help I tried to replace PCI subclass code from 01h to 80h and then ITE controller was detected, even busmaster IO base was reader OK from PCI registers but it hanged.

But I'm waiting for new mobo which should arrive in few days and then I probably will upgrade to SATA. So ITE support would'nt be really needed...

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
26.11.2007, 14:01

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> When you enabled SATA support do you think if also ITE8211 IDE controller
> will work? With Jack's help I tried to replace PCI subclass code from 01h
> to 80h and then ITE controller was detected, even busmaster IO base was
> reader OK from PCI registers but it hanged.

At least there is a chance if your BIOS supports EDD-3.0, because then the driver can get the PCI device+subclass by BIOS call int 13h, ah=48h.

---
MS-DOS forever!

sol 26.11.2007, 17:11 @ Japheth	preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)
	SWEET! :)

Japheth

Germany (South),
26.11.2007, 18:39
(edited by Japheth, 26.11.2007, 18:54)

@ sol

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> SWEET! :)

Is this remark referring to the pretty popular English teeny pop group of the 70s? (Ballroom Blitz, ...)

:-D

---
MS-DOS forever!

Rugxulo Usono, 26.11.2007, 18:51 @ Japheth	preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)
	> Is this remark referring to the pretty popular English teeny pop group of > the 70th? (Ballroom Blitz, ...) "Freakin' sweet", "wicked cool", "rad", "totally awesome", "kick ass".

jaybur UK, 26.11.2007, 21:09 @ Rugxulo	preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)
	> "Freakin' sweet", "wicked cool", "rad", "totally awesome", "kick ass". I'll take that as a yes then 'cos they were a damn good band.

RayeR

CZ,
26.11.2007, 18:11

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> At least there is a chance if your BIOS supports EDD-3.0, because then the
> driver can get the PCI device+subclass by BIOS call int 13h, ah=48h.

BTW what is EDD?
I don't think this is an issue for patched UIDE driver when it then could detect ITE controller and busmaster IO base address but hangs when it should write detected drives.
I'll try your version when come at home.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
26.11.2007, 18:21

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> BTW what is EDD?

EDD = Enhanced Disk Drive: the 4xh functions of int 13h

> I don't think this is an issue for patched UIDE driver when it then could
> detect ITE controller and busmaster IO base address but hangs when it
> should write detected drives.

What means "write" here? "Write" to the drive or "Write" to the screen the name of the drive it detected? Anyway, if UIDE was able to get the port base addresses of both the IDE and the DMA controller and it still hangs, then XDMA32 will almost certainly fail as well.

But since I know you are an experienced user and programmer, this should be no problem at all. With 386SWAT you can easily stop inside XDMA32 and find the "hang". Enjoy! :-)

---
MS-DOS forever!

RayeR

CZ,
26.11.2007, 21:25

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> EDD = Enhanced Disk Drive: the 4xh functions of int 13h

Aha, I found and got Phoenix spec.
But it looks bad, when I did:

mov ax,41h mov bx,55AAh mov dl,80h int 13h

nothing was happened, no version, no 55-AA toggle so seem my bios doesn't support it at all.

> What means "write" here? "Write" to the drive or "Write" to the screen the
> name of the drive it detected? Anyway, if UIDE was able to get the port
> base addresses of both the IDE and the DMA controller and it still hangs,
> then XDMA32 will almost certainly fail as well.

Sorry, I meant display to screen.
I tried new jemmex + xdma but no result, no HDDs:

XDMA32 V1.0, 11-25-2007 Hardware-only disk scan: No disk to use; XDMA32 not loaded! JLoad: 'XDMA32.DLL' loaded successfully.

XCDROM32 V1.0, 5-13-2007. Driver name is JLOAD. UltraDMA controller at I-O address FFA0h, Chip I.D. 808627DFh. Unit 0: Primary-master, _NEC DVD_RW ND-4551A, ATA-33. Unit 1: Primary-slave, CD-W524E, ATA-33. JLoad: 'XCDROM32.DLL' loaded successfully.

Optical drives are OK as the are attached to ICH7R (to be able to boot from them). (Why those stupid intel cut down PATA channels :(( I don't really need SATA.)

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
26.11.2007, 22:08

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> Aha, I found and got Phoenix spec.
> But it looks bad, when I did:
>
> mov ax,41h
> mov bx,55AAh
> mov dl,80h
> int 13h
>
> nothing was happened, no version, no 55-AA toggle so seem my bios doesn't
> support it at all.

did you really use AX? Because it should be AH:

mov ah,41h mov bx,55AAh mov dl,80h int 13h

---
MS-DOS forever!

RayeR

CZ,
27.11.2007, 00:10

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> did you really use AX? Because it should be AH:

my mistake...

Then I got AH=30h and 55-AA flipped.
BTW it returns AH=01 under win98 and made nice BSOD after which I can't leave dos box :)

Call with AH=48h will zero the AH but don't fill ds:si pointer to structure.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
27.11.2007, 08:20

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> Then I got AH=30h and 55-AA flipped.
> BTW it returns AH=01 under win98 and made nice BSOD after which I can't
> leave dos box :)
>
> Call with AH=48h will zero the AH but don't fill ds:si pointer to
> structure.

Did you fill the word at [ds:si] with the size of the structure BEFORE the call?

It's 001Eh for EDD 2.0, 0042h for EDD 3.0.

---
MS-DOS forever!

RayeR

CZ,
27.11.2007, 11:42

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> Did you fill the word at [ds:si] with the size of the structure BEFORE the
> call?
>
> It's 001Eh for EDD 2.0, 0042h for EDD 3.0.

Hm, it seems to me weird. I though I got a pointer to ROM with some string/binary structure. So you mean that I need 1st allocate a buffer, put it's pointer to DS:SI (like for VESA info to ES:DI) and then put a size-word at the beginning of buffer?

BTW is there some info tool which can reports EDD data? If not, maybe I can write one :)

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
27.11.2007, 16:08

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> Hm, it seems to me weird. I though I got a pointer to ROM with some
> string/binary structure. So you mean that I need 1st allocate a buffer,
> put it's pointer to DS:SI (like for VESA info to ES:DI) and then put a
> size-word at the beginning of buffer?

yes

> BTW is there some info tool which can reports EDD data?

I don't know, usually I use a DEBUG "script" and RBIL: :-D

a mov ah,48 mov si,200 mov dl,80 int 13 int 3 e 200 42 00 00 00 g=100 d 200 q

> If not, maybe I can write one :)

Good idea! But will it be a 200 kB DJGPP app then?

---
MS-DOS forever!

RayeR

CZ,
28.11.2007, 00:08

@ Japheth

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> I don't know, usually I use a DEBUG "script" and RBIL: :-D

I got some EDD data but looks a lot of zeros there, probably only few entries filled. I'll check it

I found that my bios doesn't look at size word in buffer, the result is same for 42h, 0h, ffffh or whatever. But in spec is described that you should enter max buffer size and bios should change it to 30 or 26. I got always 26.

> Good idea! But will it be a 200 kB DJGPP app then?

I never made over 200 kB UPXed DJGPP app :)
But I think my old good BC is good for this job, maybe less than 20kB.

BTW do you know what should mean
"Unhandled exception 000E at 0020 1A9E ErrCode 0002" I sometimes got when running Turbo Debugger 4.0 when playing with short ASM code for EDD (it happened at TD start)? I didn't see this before use JEMM but everything else seems run OK.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

RayeR

CZ,
28.11.2007, 02:02

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> I never made over 200 kB UPXed DJGPP app :)
> But I think my old good BC is good for this job, maybe less than 20kB.

You can try first alfa http://rayer.ic.cz/programm/eddinfo.exe
Please send me your edd.bin dumped to current directory.

---
DOS gives me freedom to unlimited HW access.

Japheth

Germany (South),
28.11.2007, 23:04

@ RayeR

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

> You can try first alfa
> http://rayer.ic.cz/programm/eddinfo.exe
> Please send me your edd.bin dumped to current directory.

Thanks! I sent you the EDD.BIN file.

The eddinfo program apparently ignores drive numbers given as a parameter?

---
MS-DOS forever!

lucho 27.11.2007, 15:09 @ Japheth	Licence conflict
	I don't care about this matter, but I wonder how nobody noticed that the Artistic Licence of EMM386/JEMM is regarded as non-free by the FSF, which means it's GPL-incompatible, so the GPL'd XCDROM/XDMA can't be combined with JEMM as JLMs.

Japheth

Germany (South),
27.11.2007, 15:57

@ lucho

Licence conflict

> I don't care about this matter, but I wonder how nobody noticed that the
> Artistic
> Licence of EMM386/JEMM is regarded as non-free
> by the FSF, which means it's GPL-incompatible, so the GPL'd XCDROM/XDMA
> can't be combined
> with JEMM as JLMs.

Thanks for this hint! What's your suggestion to solve this possible conflict?

---
MS-DOS forever!

tom

Germany (West),
27.11.2007, 18:59

@ Japheth

Licence conflict

> > I don't care about this matter, but I wonder how nobody noticed that the
> > Artistic
> > Licence of EMM386/JEMM is regarded as
> non-free
> > by the FSF, which means it's GPL-incompatible, so the GPL'd
> XCDROM/XDMA
> > can't be
> combined
> > with JEMM as JLMs.
>
> Thanks for this hint! What's your suggestion to solve this possible
> conflict?

a) it's not combined (it's a separate module)
b) as the license holder of xEMM386: if that would be a problem, I'd
change the license (but not to GPL)

Tom

lucho

27.11.2007, 19:34

@ tom

Licence conflict

> a) it's not combined (it's a separate module)

Yes, but according to the FSF, "if the semantics of the communication are intimate enough, exchanging complex internal data structures, that too could be a basis to consider the two parts as combined into a larger program."

Of course, all this is very subjective, but it's better to avoid any doubt.

> b) as the license holder of xEMM386: if that would be a problem, I'd change the license (but not to GPL)

Your choice - plenty of licences... if only they were written for mortal people, not for lawyers! :-(

lucho 27.11.2007, 19:43 @ Japheth	Licence conflict
	> Thanks for this hint! What's your suggestion to solve this possible conflict? Easiest is Tom to change the EMM386 licence, as he suggests. There's one more obvious way to go, but I'd better keep my mouth shut on it, lest provoke another "war".

Japheth

Germany (South),
27.11.2007, 19:56

@ lucho

Licence conflict

> Easiest is Tom to change the EMM386 licence, as he suggests.

No. Because there is also Harald Albrecht holding a copyright, who most likely is not "accessible". And as far as I am concerned, the only acceptable licence other than "Artistic" is "Public Domain".

> There's one more obvious way to go, but I'd better keep my mouth shut on it,
> lest provoke another "war".

Sorry, hypo, but if you didn't intend to start another war, you should have kept your mouth shut *before* posting the "Licence conflict". I know very well that you are not at all interested in license issues. Courage!

---
MS-DOS forever!

lucho

27.11.2007, 20:20

@ Japheth

Licence conflict

> No. Because there is also Harald Albrecht holding a copyright, who most
> likely is not "accessible". And as far as I am concerned, the only
> acceptable licence other than "Artistic" is "Public Domain".

Let's see what Tom says on this.

> Sorry, hypo, but if you didn't intend to start another war, you should
> have kept your mouth shut *before* posting the "Licence conflict". I know
> very well that you are not at all interested in license issues. Courage!

First you thank me (see above), then you insult me. Shall I "open my mouth"?

sol 27.11.2007, 20:36 (edited by sol, 27.11.2007, 20:58) @ lucho	Licence conflict
	> First you thank me (see above), then you insult me. Shall I "open my > mouth"? You don't find yourself a hypocrite for suggesting someone else to be more careful about copyright violation, when they're on the safe side of license "gray area" while you're busy stating you don't recognize copyright and blatantly violate licenses? Edited for clarity :)

lucho 27.11.2007, 21:08 @ sol	Licence conflict
	"Can't you feel when you are superfluous? Then let me tell you: you are!" The above was written by your friend some weeks ago. It applies 100% to you now.

sol 27.11.2007, 21:15 @ lucho	Licence conflict
	> The above was written by your friend some weeks ago. It applies 100% to > you now. Ah, so what you're saying is that it's extremely obvious to everyone that you're an idiot/hypocrite, making it a redundant thing to mention? Fair enough.

lucho

27.11.2007, 21:25

@ sol

Licence conflict

> Ah, so what you're saying is that it's extremely obvious to everyone that
> you're an idiot/hypocrite, making it a redundant thing to mention? Fair enough.

Risking to repeat myself, I say "look into the mirror and you'll see him". I know why you wrote that "SWEET". You were referring to how sweet you feel to upset Jack with Grech's ports of Jack's old and obsolete XDMA and XCDROM to JLMs.

And please remove that idiotic signature of yours! Jack never said that most Germans are Nazis.

rr

Berlin, Germany,
27.11.2007, 21:27

@ lucho

Licence conflict

> Risking to repeat myself, I say "look into the mirror and you'll see him".
> I know why you wrote that "SWEET". You were referring to how sweet you feel
> to upset Jack with Grech's obsolete and problematic ports of Jack's old
> XDMA and XCDROM to JLMs.

Let's stop this here!

---
Forum admin

lucho 27.11.2007, 21:30 @ rr	Licence conflict
	> Let's stop this here! I agree. Everything is already clear enough.

Japheth

Germany (South),
28.11.2007, 10:20
(edited by Japheth, 28.11.2007, 11:13)

@ lucho

NO insult

> First you thank me (see above), then you insult me. Shall I "open my
> mouth"?

My first post (the "thank you") was pure sarcasm, although I have to admit that I forgot to use the ;-) smiley.

And btw, I didn't insult you. You're constantly refusing to use my nickname in this forum, thus forcing me to also avoid using yours. OTOH I really don't want to learn and remember your true name. This finally leads to 2 options for me to use as a name for you:

1. HYPO: which is - of course - NOT an abbreviation of HYPOcrite, but a short form for HYPERMAN, Superman's friend. Do you know who is Superman? Anyway, they both are VERY GOOD guys.

2. TBC: which is - of course - NOT an acronym for "The Board's Clown", but for "The Best Credible one"

So please choose the one you'd prefer, I will obey. :ok:

---
MS-DOS forever!

lucho 28.11.2007, 10:38 @ Japheth	True names
	> OTOH I really don't want to learn and remember your true name. I'd understand if you said "don't remember": I also have difficulties remembering names. But you said "don't want to learn and remember". I think that's just a superiority complex. In any case, my true name is in my user data, unlike yours which is still "Angela Merkel".

Steve US, 28.11.2007, 12:39 @ Japheth	NO insult
	> 1. HYPO: which is - of course - NOT an abbreviation of HYPOcrite, but a > short form for HYPERMAN, Superman's friend. Do you know who is Superman? > Anyway, they both are VERY GOOD guys. hyper() = über() hypo() = unter() I leave the rest to you.

tom

Germany (West),
27.11.2007, 20:59

@ Japheth

Licence conflict

> No. Because there is also Harald Albrecht holding a copyright, who most
> likely is not "accessible". And as far as I am concerned, the only
> acceptable licence other than "Artistic" is "Public Domain".

I have Harald Albrecht permission to change the license.

I recommend (and allow) to change the license to Artistic 2.0, which is 'free enough' according to the FSF.

This should settle this non-issue.

Tom

sol 27.11.2007, 21:03 @ tom	Licence conflict
	> I recommend (and allow) to change the license to Artistic 2.0, which is > 'free enough' according to the FSF. I wouldn't use the FSF as a gauge for "free" - the GPL is not at all free. I suggest BSD :)

lucho

28.11.2007, 09:55

@ tom

JLOAD source code

> I recommend (and allow) to change the license to Artistic 2.0, which is
> 'free enough' according to the FSF.

Yes, that'd be most natural. It might solve another issue: missing JLOAD source code. Clause (9) in the Artistic Licence 2.0 (missing in version 1) says:

=== start quote ===

Items That are Not Considered Part of a Modified Version

(9) Works (including, but not limited to, modules and scripts) that merely extend or make use of the Package, do not, by themselves, cause the Package to be a Modified Version. In addition, such works are not considered parts of the Package itself, and are not subject to the terms of this license.

=== end quote ===

So JLOAD could be considered not a part of the package. Really? As JEMM has some provisions for JLOAD, I don't think so. But if clause (9) doesn't apply to JLOAD (that is, it's a part of the package and is covered by the same licence) then Mr A. Grech should make its source code available as per clauses (4), (5) and (6).

sol

28.11.2007, 18:35

@ lucho

JLOAD source code

lucho...you have to understand that different people are good at different things. You're good at physical labour, like cleaning toilets and mopping floors. Other people are good at thinking. Everyone should do what they're good at ;) --- this would save everyone time.

I'll try to make this *very* simple so you can understand. Let me know what I don't need to clarify for you, if anything:

1. Countries that are not communist/socialist recognise that people may "own" something, which means it belongs to them! What a novel idea, huh?

2. Japheth is the "copyright owner." The copyright owner owns the code, like a writer or artist owns a book or painting they have created. The term "owner" is derived from the word "own" as explained in (1).

3. The "copyright owner" can make copies without any form of authorization, that's why we call them the copyright "owner"

4. People are not allowed to make copies of Japheth's software, because they are not the "owner" of the work.

5. A license is what allows people who are not the owner of the copyright to make copies, under certain conditions

An example might be that Japheth could release the next version of JEMM under the GPL, and not release the source at all. He owns the copyright and doesn't need permission. He's not bound by the license because he "owns" the software.

Even if he were able to break his own license...who's going to sue him for Copyright infringement? Will he sue himself?

lucho

29.11.2007, 13:51

@ sol

JLOAD source code

If the society needs me to clean toilets and mop floors, I'd do it. I've done it in the army, and am proud that I fear no labour, unlike you, who have never done it, lest not get your precious white hands dirty! There is no shameful labour.

(The contempt you feel against me is equal only to contempt I feel against you.)

Hands off socialism! Your washed brain knows really nothing about it. If you need to express your mad anticommunism, this is not the right forum to do this.

A. Grech doesn't own JLOAD. There is no such thing as "intellectual property". He only breaches the EMM386 licence by not making the source code of the EMM386 extension called JLOAD available, nor does he obviously care about it, nor I do.

Steve

US,
29.11.2007, 14:43

@ lucho

JLOAD source code

> If the society needs me to clean toilets and mop floors, I'd do it. I've
> done it in the army, and am proud that I fear no labour,

It's easy not to fear what is not a threat to you, safe at your TU.

> unlike you, who have never done it, lest not get your precious white hands
> dirty!

How do you know what labor sol has or has not done, or what color his (her? [no direct evidence available]) hands are?

> Hands off socialism! Your washed brain knows really nothing about it.

It's your brain, washed by "actually existing" socialism that knows nothing.

> If you need to express your mad anticommunism, this is not the right forum
> to do this.

Your father had a good job with the Party, right?

> A. Grech doesn't own JLOAD. There is no such thing as "intellectual
> property". He only breaches the EMM386 licence by not making the source
> code of the EMM386 extension called JLOAD available, nor does he obviously
> care about it, nor I do.

Another of your illogical and immaterial rants. Thank you for the entertainment!

Khusraw 29.11.2007, 16:30 @ Steve	JLOAD source code
	> It's your brain, washed by "actually existing" socialism that knows > nothing. Lucho, like me, has lived under both socialist and burgeoise regimes, so I think he is more entitled than you to have an opinion on this matter. OTOH you show serious flaws in your faculty of understanding, so I think you could hardly be entitled to talk even about things under your nose.

sol

29.11.2007, 18:02

@ Khusraw

JLOAD source code

> Lucho, like me, has lived under both socialist and burgeoise regimes, so I
> think he is more entitled than you to have an opinion on this matter. OTOH
> you show serious flaws in your faculty of understanding, so I think you
> could hardly be entitled to talk even about things under your nose.

You've lived under a society entirely drained by socialism. If you build a democratic/capitalist society on one that socialism has stolen all the wealth from, it will take some time before you see the fruit of your efforts :) --- just as socialism looks as though its flourishing while it steals all the wealth from a country.

Socialism, as a concept, goes entirely against human nature. *This* is why it's doomed to failure. It's a good concept if each human were a robot, but this just isn't the case. This is why socialism fails - you can't eliminate pride, jealousy and greed from the human heart. Only brainwashed idiots don't understand this.

lucho

29.11.2007, 20:30

@ sol

Grossly off-topic: Human nature or his nature?!

> Socialism, as a concept, goes entirely against human nature. *This* is
> why it's doomed to failure. It's a good concept if each human were a
> robot, but this just isn't the case. This is why socialism fails - you
> can't eliminate pride, jealousy and greed from the human heart. Only
> brainwashed idiots don't understand this.

Only brainwashed idiots won't understand that you mistake human nature with your own nature, which your washed brain thinks equals human nature. In fact, your nature is not human at all! But I don't worry, creatures like you and the other members of your Gang will just be impossible to exist in the future.

What do you know about the human nature? As the Satan or Lucifer (SoL), you know only its dark side. You can never understand how great can the human be. You, who are waived only of evil.

Your favourite capitalism is not the end of history. This is equal to claiming that the Earth is flat, or that it's the centre of the Universe. Even the Pope already admitted that it's not.

Khusraw

29.11.2007, 21:10

@ sol

JLOAD source code

> You've lived under a society entirely drained by socialism. If you build
> a democratic/capitalist society on one that socialism has stolen all the
> wealth from, it will take some time before you see the fruit of your
> efforts :) --- just as socialism looks as though its flourishing while it
> steals all the wealth from a country.

I wouldn't say that the burgeoise society is democratic (and I'm not talking just about the burgeoise society from my country), but rather that it offers a simulacrum of democracy. My country was spoiled by the burgeoises (from inside and outside), and in the time of their regime, not in the years of socialism beginning with the 1960's. Before the 1960's we had Soviet occupation and their imposed dummy government, but this is another story.
On the other hand the socialism never seemed to flourish in my country, if you understand what I mean.

> Socialism, as a concept, goes entirely against human nature. *This* is
> why it's doomed to failure. It's a good concept if each human were a
> robot, but this just isn't the case. This is why socialism fails - you
> can't eliminate pride, jealousy and greed from the human heart. Only
> brainwashed idiots don't understand this.

People feelings are determined by the society in which they live in a higher degree than you think. But this doesn't mean that socialism completely eliminates pride, jealousy and greed. Not at all. Socialism isn't as stupid as you think and it never aims to unrealizable things. It knows very well what can be done and how can be done. The socialism is smart enough to use these human feelings in a constructive manner, because it is master in making the evil to serve the good. Both sanctity and criminality could have their roots in these human feelings and socialism uses them for the former. But the bourgeoisie uses them for the later. The bourgeoise, being pragmatical, lacks any consistency. If he wants something, it is "good", if not, it is "bad". If it is in his interest to have some laws, he enacts them, when the same laws turn against his interest, he abrogates them. When people are unwilling to bend under his dominion, he calls his repression forces, when people are brainwashed and acquiescent, he is apostle of nonviolence. The burgeoise society is the reign of the arbitrary and of the total subjectivity.
Last but not least keep in mind that socialism aims to the multilateral development of the human being, capitalism to the unilateral. This is why the monomaniac human robots are to be found only in the sybaritic burgeoise society and not in socialism.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 00:12

@ Khusraw

"Socialism"

Edit: Revised subject header.

> My country was spoiled by the burgeoises (from inside and outside),
> and in the time of their regime, not in the years of socialism beginning
> with the 1960's. Before the 1960's we had Soviet occupation and their
> imposed dummy government, but this is another story.

You are very confused, a perfect product of "actually existing" socialism.

> On the other hand the socialism never seemed to flourish in my country, if
> you understand what I mean.

Your country never had real socialism. It had state capitalism, administered by corrupt and paranoid dictatorships.

> Socialism
> isn't as stupid as you think and it never aims to unrealizable things. It
> knows very well what can be done and how can be done. The socialism is
> smart enough to use these human feelings in a constructive manner, because
> it is master in making the evil to serve the good. Both sanctity and
> criminality could have their roots in these human feelings and socialism
> uses them for the former.

An attractive hypothesis. Where is the evidence to support it?

> But the bourgeoisie uses them for the later.

What ruler or ruling class (including Communist Party) does not?

> bourgeoise, being pragmatical, lacks any consistency. If he wants
> something, it is "good", if not, it is "bad". If it is in his interest to
> have some laws, he enacts them, when the same laws turn against his
> interest, he abrogates them. When people are unwilling to bend under his
> dominion, he calls his repression forces, when people are brainwashed and
> acquiescent, he is apostle of nonviolence. The burgeoise society is the
> reign of the arbitrary and of the total subjectivity.

Substitute "Party" for bourgeoisie and you have the history of your country (and some others) under so-called socialism.

> Last but not least keep in mind that socialism aims to the multilateral
> development of the human being, capitalism to the unilateral. This is why
> the monomaniac human robots are to be found only in the sybaritic
> burgeoise society and not in socialism.

You know nothing.

Khusraw 30.11.2007, 08:58 @ Steve	"Socialism"
	You have many preconceptions determined by the burgeoise propaganda. But this is a DOS forum and I will stop to talk about political issues here. If you are eager to learn in order to broaden your poor knowledge (which I doubt), search for a political forum and I will replay you there.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 09:33

@ Khusraw

"Socialism"

I have no preconceptions of the kind you suspect - another of your fantasies. You have not the slightest information on what I know, where I have been, and what I have seen. If you did not wish to discuss your glorious "socialism", you should not have introduced the subject.

If you wish to continue believing the fairy tales you were told when you were a child, that is your problem, not mine. Rest easy, I will not waste any more of my time bothering you about reality.

Khusraw

30.11.2007, 10:28

@ Steve

"Socialism"

> I have no preconceptions of the kind you suspect - another of your
> fantasies. You have not the slightest information on what I know, where I
> have been, and what I have seen. If you did not wish to discuss your
> glorious "socialism", you should not have introduced the subject.

If you look on the thread you will see that it was not me who introduced the subject. You told an untruth and I had to reply. If you really have knowledge and experience why don't you share them with us and why do you like to seem such an ignorant?

> If you wish to continue believing the fairy tales you were told when you
> were a child, that is your problem, not mine. Rest easy, I will not waste
> any more of my time bothering you about reality.

Until my 20's I was totally against socialism and for a burgeoise society. I finally understood the net superiority of socialism over capitalism when I saw both inside and outside my country what the burgeoise regime made from human beings.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 11:17

@ Khusraw

"Socialism"

> If you look on the thread you will see that it was not me who introduced
> the subject.

You have apparently forgotten your own earlier messages. But you can read them still - they have not been deleted.

> You told an untruth and I had to reply.

What untruth?

> If you really have knowledge and experience why don't you share them with us
> and why do you like to seem such an ignorant?

Why don't you tell us about the wonderful condition of your country under "socialism" and explain its need to destroy villages and push their people into poverty, keep orphan children in misery while your rulers lived in palaces, imprison dissenters, drive good people into exile...? If you say you never heard about any of that, then you are the one who is ignorant. Or a stinking liar.

> Until my 20's I was totally against socialism and for a burgeoise society.
> I finally understood the net superiority of socialism over capitalism when
> I saw both inside and outside my country what the burgeoise regime made
> from human beings.

So you were a human being, and now you are a barbarian. Congratulations.

Khusraw

30.11.2007, 14:34
(edited by Khusraw, 30.11.2007, 15:26)

@ Steve

"Socialism"

> Why don't you tell us about the wonderful condition of your country under
> "socialism" and explain its need to destroy villages and push their people
> into poverty, keep orphan children in misery while your rulers lived in
> palaces, imprison dissenters, drive good people into exile...? If you say
> you never heard about any of that, then you are the one who is ignorant.
> Or a stinking liar.

This is the only part which deserves an answer.
For historical reasons, my country never had a "wonderful condition", but the second part of the 1960's and the first part of the 1970's were its best years. What happened after was determined by multiple factors which is not here the place to discuss. Keep in mind just the fact that the foul game played by a world institution, the change of regime in a Middle Eastern country famed for its literature and its carpets, and not at least an execrable case of capital treason, were the principal reasons for the disaster that followed. I agree with you that the systematization of some villages was a foolish policy of modernization, but do you know how those villages looked before? For the miserable conditions in which those poor orphan children lived, who was guilty, the socialist regime or the accursed staff of the Orphanages who stole the money which the State gave for the children and used the money for their own needs? What you call "palaces" were in fact "villas" and I'm sure that your rulers don't live in hovels. Those who went into exile did it because the country dipped into poverty for the reasons I shown you above. Regarding the imprisonment of dissenters I tell you something which I'm sure you will not understand: if someone was imprisoned, it means that he/she defied the law. But there was not such a thing as political infractions in our penal code. The point is: don't be a dissenter as long as you are not clean.

Edit: corrected a language mistake.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 15:33

@ Khusraw

"Socialism"

> For historical reasons, my country never had a "wonderful condition", but
> the second part of the 1960's and the first part of the 1970's were its
> best years. What happened after was determined by multiple factors which
> is not here the place to discuss. Keep in mind just the fact that the foul
> game played by a mondial institution

Which institution?

> the change of regime in a Middle Eastern country famed for its literature and its carpets

You mean Iran? Relevance?

> and not at least
> an execrable case of capital treason, were the principal reasons for the
> disaster that followed. I agree with you that the systematization of some
> villages was a foolish policy of modernization, but do you know how those
> villages looked before?

So why not rebuild houses and install sewers? Answer: The purpose wasn't to help the poor bastards, but to destroy their communities and cultures. The world knows it. Stop lying.

> For the miserable conditions in which those poor
> orphan children lived, who was guilty, the socialist regime or the
> accursed staff of the Orphanages who stole the money which the State gave
> for the children and used the money for their own needs?

The regime. Since when does a Communist regime trust anyone to do the right thing without supervision? Answer: It doesn't. Somebody high up either had a hand in it, or was too drunk to care. Or both. (And that's assuming the money existed to begin with - who knows if it did?)

> What you call "palaces" were in fact "villas"

Evasion. "Villa" covers a wide range, overlapping with palace. Do you think your leaders lived in 2 or 3 rooms, with modest furniture?

> and I'm sure that your rulers don't live in hovels.

But my leaders are big capitalists, not socialists.

> Those who went into exile did it because the country dipped into poverty

Evasion. Many who left were doing well. But they conveniently drop out of your equation.

> for the reasons I shown you above.

You have shown nothing.

> Regarding the imprisonment
> of dissenters I tell you something which I'm sure you will not understand:
> if someone was imprisoned, it means that he/she defied the law. But there
> was not such a thing as political infractions in our penal code. The
> point is: don't be a dissenter as long as you are not clean.

Nothing labeled political infractions. Therefore dissenters had to be labeled something else. Were there no honest dissenters? Did Party officials with dirty hands all go to prison? Wake up.

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:56 @ Steve	You must be a deserter
	I see - you must have deserted from your country (whichever it was) to the West before 1989! Hence your anticommunism.

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 16:07 @ lucho	You must be a deserter
	> I see - you must have deserted from your country (whichever it was) to the > West before 1989! Hence your anticommunism. Interesting logic: I deserted, therefore I am anticommunist. How about: I saw the light, therefore I left Hell. Actually, that's not exactly true. But it's close enough.

lucho 30.11.2007, 16:51 @ Steve	You must be a deserter
	> How about: I saw the light, therefore I left Hell. Actually, that's not exactly true. But it's close enough. So I was right!!! Which country was your "hell"?

Khusraw 30.11.2007, 17:18 @ lucho	You must be a deserter
	> Which country was your "hell"? Surely he is not from Romania, because he has no idea of how the things were here. But it's possible that he knows someone from Romania who intoxicated him with well-known lies.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 17:32

@ Khusraw

You must be a deserter

> Surely he is not from Romania, because he has no idea of how the things
> were here. But it's possible that he knows someone from Romania who
> intoxicated him with well-known lies.

No, not from Romania. But I have known ex-Romanians who had no reason to lie to me. And then there are the many other sources of information that exist, and have existed for a long time. Wake up, step out of your stupid little bubble.

sol

30.11.2007, 17:37

@ Khusraw

You must be a deserter

"A large number of people were arbitrarily imprisoned for political, economic or unknown reasons: detainees in prisons or camps, deported, persons under house arrest, and administrative detainees. Political prisoners were also detained as psychiatric patients, estimations vary, from 60,000, to 80,000. There were hundreds of thousands of abuses, deaths and incidents of torture against a large range of people, from political opponents to ordinary citizens. Political prisoners were freed in a series of amnesties between 1962 and 1964. In total, it is estimated that up to two million people have lost their lives directly because of the regime."

"After the negotiated retreat of Soviet troops in 1958, Romania, under the new leadership of Nicolae Ceausescu, started to pursue independent policies."

...

"A short-lived period of relative economic well-being and openness followed in the late 1960s and the beginning of the 1970s. As Romania's foreign debt sharply increased between 1977 and 1981 (from 3 to 10 billion US dollars), the influence of international financial organisations such as the IMF or the World Bank grew, conflicting with Nicolae Ceausescu's autarchic policies. Ceausescu eventually initiated a project of total reimbursement of the foreign debt (completed in 1989, shortly before his overthrow). To achieve this goal, he imposed policies that impoverished Romanians and exhausted the Romanian economy. He greatly extended the authority police state and imposed a cult of personality. These lead to a dramatic decrease in Ceausescu-popularity and culminated in his overthrow and death in the bloody Romanian Revolution of 1989."

----------------------------------------

To sum it all up: Romania was made poor in the 40s and 50s under communism. The "prosperity" in the early 1970s was due to the country having borrowed a great deal of $ from other countries to rebuild. This is artificial wealth. That's why in 1977+ the country had such a hard time, it had to repay this debt.

Khusraw, the only communism you've ever experienced destroyed your country. You can't name a single country that's had successful communism or socialism, as though a distinction should really be made.

Khusraw

30.11.2007, 18:33

@ sol

You must be a deserter

> To sum it all up: Romania was made poor in the 40s and 50s under
> communism. The "prosperity" in the early 1970s was due to the country
> having borrowed a great deal of $ from other countries to rebuild. This
> is artificial wealth. That's why in 1977+ the country had such a hard
> time, it had to repay this debt.

Unlike you, I don't have the need to read an incomplete and half-true article in Wikipedia in order to know about Romania. Romania had to pay huge war reparations and was looted over ten years by the Soviet occupant. The country borrowed in order to reconstruct its economy. In the early 1970s it wasn't just "prosperity", but respect for the human being, the feeling of security and the flourishment of culture and civilization. The foul game played by the World Bank (I don't have the time to tell you more about), the fall of the Shah regime with whom were signed some very important economic agreements and the high treason of an accursed individual conduced to a state of despondency which culminated in the aberant policies from the second decade of the 1980s.

lucho

30.11.2007, 18:39

@ sol

Successful socialism

> You can't name a single country that's had successful communism
> or socialism, as though a distinction should really be made.

A common misconception: it was socialism, not communism. Communism is the final goal and hasn't existed anywhere yet. Communism is also the name of the Marxist-Leninist ideology of the Communist party.

As to the countries that had successful socialism, I can name the USSR, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cuba, Vietnam and China (in the latter 3, the traitors were not allowed to climb to the top of the hierarchy - remember for example the real Gang of Four). I can't speak for the other countries but sure there were others too. Ladislav or Martin can say for Czechoslovakia, if they want.

Another common misconception: socialism in our countries didn't cease to exist because of its failure. As Fidel Castro said, it just committed a suicide! :-(

sol

30.11.2007, 19:44

@ lucho

Successful socialism

> As to the countries that had successful socialism, I can name the USSR,
> Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Cuba, Vietnam and China (in the latter 3,

The USSR was a terrible failure, it sucked up resources without managing to put anything back. As I already posted, it looted Romania of its resources as well, turning it into an impoverished country. It also did this to other nations, such as Poland. "Socialism" in the USSR was nothing more than a thief living off the wealth of others until there was no more money to take.

Cuba's people are INCREDIBLY poor, again, thanks to socialism/communism. I expect you to blame the U.S. about Cuba - but if Cuba's socialism worked, it would've been able to sustain itself.

China's people are not free - they can't even choose to have a few children. Heard anything about tiananmen square? That's the prime example of slaughtering anyone who isn't an obedient slave to the state.

> Another common misconception: socialism in our countries didn't cease to
> exist because of its failure. As Fidel Castro said, it just committed a
> suicide! :-(

Of course it did, people are not capable of defying their nature. If they were, we'd have seen a successful socialist nation.

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 17:27 @ lucho	You must be a deserter
	> > How about: I saw the light, therefore I left Hell. Actually, that's not > exactly true. But it's close enough. > > So I was right!!! Read my words again: Actually, that's not exactly true. But it's close enough > Which country was your "hell"? The big one.

lucho 30.11.2007, 18:26 @ Steve	You're Stepan from Russia!
	> > Which country was your "hell"? > > The big one. CCCP? 3gpaBcmByu, CTena! (sorry, this forum doesn't accept any other encodings but ANSI (Western). Translation for those who don't know Russian: The USSR? Hello, Stiopa! (from Stepan) Why didn't you go to Canada instead of the US?

Khusraw

30.11.2007, 17:09
(edited by Khusraw, 30.11.2007, 17:24)

@ Steve

"Socialism"

> So why not rebuild houses and install sewers? Answer: The purpose wasn't
> to help the poor bastards, but to destroy their communities and cultures.
> The world knows it. Stop lying.

You don't know what you are talking about. The systematization was a foolish plan which aimed to transform those poor villages in little towns. What community and what culture has been destroyed?! It's simply ridiculous!

> The regime. Since when does a Communist regime trust anyone to do the
> right thing without supervision? Answer: It doesn't. Somebody high up
> either had a hand in it, or was too drunk to care. Or both. (And that's
> assuming the money existed to begin with - who knows if it did?)

The supervisors were not at all at such "high" level as you think. They were bored and corruptible officemen who had their share in all that business. Who knew what they were doing? You are so stupid to imagine that in the socialist regime there are eyes and ears everywhere?

> Evasion. Many who left were doing well. But they conveniently drop out of
> your equation.

They thought they will do even better. If you imply that they were persecuted, you are far from reality. Perhaps they fooled people to believe so, in order for them to gain some material advantages.

> Nothing labeled political infractions. Therefore dissenters had to
> be labeled something else. Were there no honest dissenters? Did Party
> officials with dirty hands all go to prison? Wake up.

Tell me the name of a single party official who defied the law and was forgiven. Tell me the name of a single honest dissenter who went to prison. You have no idea of how the things worked. If someone was dissenter, the regime agents asked him what he/she really needs for stop being a dissenter. The most part were happy with what they received. But if they didn't reach an agreement, the dissenter was searched for small common law offences. If found guilty, he/she was either fined or sent to prison for that offence. If not, he/she was just put under surveillance in order to prevent his/her collaboration with the agents of some inimical countries from both the East and the West.

Edit: corrected some language mistakes

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 17:58

@ Khusraw

"Socialism"

> > So why not rebuild houses and install sewers? Answer: The purpose wasn't
> > to help the poor bastards, but to destroy their communities and cultures.
> > The world knows it. Stop lying.
>
> You don't know what you are talking about. The systematization was a
> foolish plan which aimed to transform those poor villages in little towns.
> What community and what culture has been destroyed?! It's simply
> ridiculous!

It's known to the world. Why waste your time lying? Are you going to erase all the information that is available to anyone who Googles Romania + systematization right now?

> > The regime. Since when does a Communist regime trust anyone to do the
> > right thing without supervision? Answer: It doesn't. Somebody high up
> > either had a hand in it, or was too drunk to care. Or both. (And that's
> > assuming the money existed to begin with - who knows if it did?)
>
> The supervisors were not at all at such "high" level as you think. They
> were bored and corruptible officemen who had their share in all that
> business. Who knew what they were doing?

Nobody in Bucharest looked at accounts and reports?

> You are so stupid to imagine that in the socialist regime there are eyes and ears everywhere?

It did for dissenters. It must be true - you say it.

> > Evasion. Many who left were doing well. But they conveniently drop out of
> > your equation.
>
> They thought they will do even better. If you imply that they were
> persecuted, you are far from reality. Perhaps they fooled people to
> believe so, in order for them to gain some material advantages.

Of course! (I'm slapping my head).

> > Nothing labeled political infractions. Therefore dissenters had to
> > be labeled something else. Were there no honest dissenters? Did Party
> > officials with dirty hands all go to prison? Wake up.
>
> Tell me the name of a single party official who defied the law and was
> forgiven.

Big Nikolae. Until that last little bit of trouble.

> If someone was
> dissenter, the regime agents asked him what he/she really needs for stop
> being a dissenter. The most part were happy with what they received. But
> if they didn't reach an agreement, the dissenter was searched for small
> common law offences. If found guilty, he/she was either fined or sent to
> prison for that offence. If not, he/she was just put under surveillance in
> order to prevent his/her collaboration with the agents of some inimical
> countries from both the East and the West.

I could not have described it better myself - the workings of a paranoid police state.

sol

29.11.2007, 18:11

@ lucho

JLOAD source code

> A. Grech doesn't own JLOAD. There is no such thing as "intellectual
> property". He only breaches the EMM386 licence by not making the source
> code of the EMM386 extension called JLOAD available, nor does he obviously
> care about it, nor I do.

I can't believe how incredibly dumb you are. I really can't fathom it.

How can he "breach" an intellectual property license, if intellectual property does not exist?

lucho

29.11.2007, 20:39

@ sol

JLOAD source code

> I can't believe how incredibly dumb you are. I really can't fathom it.

You and A. Grech may have already noticed that already ignore all you insults. You are two against me and I just don't have anymore the physical possibility to defend against the megatons of mud that you're incessantly throwing at me...

But beware! You kingdom of lies has only one month to live! I'll be happy to see it dead on 1 January 2008 and I will rejoice - oh, how I will rejoice!!! :-D

> How can he "breach" an intellectual property license, if intellectual property does not exist?

The Artistic Licence is not an "intellectual property licence", but a contract between the creators of the original work and its further modifiers and users.

Matjaz

Maribor, Slovenia,
29.11.2007, 21:07

@ lucho

JLOAD source code

> The Artistic Licence is not an "intellectual property licence", but a
> contract between the creators of the original work and its further
> modifiers and users.

That is a simplified definition of license :-P .
Every license is a contract. Author offers it, user accepts it. With this contract the author gives the user a right to use his intelectual creation. Works same for tanks, guns, food, drinks as well as for software.

sol 29.11.2007, 22:17 @ lucho	JLOAD source code
	> The Artistic Licence is not an "intellectual property licence", but a > contract between the creators of the original work and its further > modifiers and users. You've stated that there's no such thing as "copyright" - so a contract or license cannot be necessary. Further modifiers or users do not need any permission if there's no such thing as copyright. Your logic is completely flawed.

lucho 30.11.2007, 14:32 @ sol	Holy copyright
	> You've stated that there's no such thing as "copyright" - so a contract or > license cannot be necessary. Further modifiers or users do not need any > permission if there's no such thing as copyright. Your logic is completely flawed. No. It's like God - those who believe need a theory, practice, mediators, etc. I don't - so I don't need them. But I may find their books interesting to read.

Japheth

Germany (South),
30.11.2007, 10:47

@ lucho

Finally a sunbeam of reason

> You and A. Grech may have already noticed that already ignore all you
> insults. You are two against me and I just don't have anymore the physical
> possibility to defend against the megatons of mud that you're
> incessantly throwing at me...

Sounds like a sunbeam of reason has succeeded to reach your brain. Congrats! However, this new idea smells a lot like Jack's. Possibly he's finally realized that your foolish "defenses" are counter-productive, because they don't even convince the few ones which are already convinced (that is, the members of your FOG gang). If even the fools loose faith in you ...

---
MS-DOS forever!

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 10:52 @ Japheth	Finally a sunbeam of reason
	> (that is, the members of your FOG gang). In English weather terminology, there is no sharp boundary between FOG and MIST.

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:31 @ Steve	Bumble bees in your heads
	The fogs (mists) are only in your heads. But we have an even better sentence - bumble bees in your heads!

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 15:38 @ lucho	Bumble bees in your heads
	> The fogs (mists) are only in your heads. I see you didn't get the joke. > But we have an even better sentence - bumble bees in your heads! Fits you perfectly, Comrade I-forgot-I-changed-my-password-and-thought-I-was-banned.

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:44 @ Steve	Bumble bees in your heads, multi-barrel machine gun mouths
	> I see you didn't get the joke. Jokes from you? No, thanks! > Fits you perfectly, Comrade We're not comrades, and can never be. > I-forgot-I-changed-my-password-and-thought-I-was-banned. No, I thought so when I was thrown out because I didn't know it was a time-out. Yes, I'm not experienced in forums unlike you with your 36-barrel machine gun mouths.

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 18:36

@ lucho

Bumble bees in your heads, multi-barrel machine gun mouths

> We're not comrades, and can never be.

Oh, oh, I'm so hurt.

> > I-forgot-I-changed-my-password-and-thought-I-was-banned.
>
> No, I thought so when I was thrown out because I didn't know it was a
> time-out.

Yes, that was the second reason you gave.

> Yes, I'm not experienced in forums unlike you with your 36-barrel machine
> gun mouths.

I understand. Logging in, passwords, timeouts... very confusing. Even an illustrious professor/engineer/programmer can't be expected to remember it all.

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:28 @ Japheth	Who's your gang's boss?
	There's only one gang and that's yours. By the way, who's its boss, if that's not a secret? You???

Japheth

Germany (South),
28.11.2007, 10:29

@ tom

Licence conflict

> I have Harald Albrecht permission to change the license.
>
> I recommend (and allow) to change the license to Artistic 2.0, which is
> 'free enough' according to the FSF.
>
> This should settle this non-issue.

Thanks for bothering to clarify this!

---
MS-DOS forever!

avoskov 27.11.2007, 18:42 @ lucho	Licence conflict
	> by the FSF, which means it's GPL-incompatible, so the GPL'd XCDROM/XDMA > can't be combined with JEMM as JLMs. But why - they are not a part of JEMM386 driver, they are just using JEMM API. E.g. there are lot of GPLed program which are using propietary WIN32API. May be, spreading XCDROM32 and XDMA32 as separate package will solve the conflict of licensies?

lucho

27.11.2007, 21:18

@ avoskov

Licence conflict

> May be, spreading XCDROM32 and XDMA32 as separate package will solve the
> conflict of licensies?

I think that except as examples how to write a JLM, they don't do much good now when we have UIDE which takes just 1.75K (for up to 200 MB of cache!) of upper memory - a very small amount for a fully caching UDMA driver of HDD/CD/DVD. The only reason A. Grech added XDMA32 is to upset Jack again, not to help his users. Isn't that a big hypocrisy?

Sorry for "opening my mouth" but I was challenged by him.

jaybur UK, 27.11.2007, 23:21 @ lucho	Licence conflict
	> I think that except as examples how to write a JLM, they don't do much > good now when we have UIDE which takes just 1.75K 1.75K is very good, but every byte of low memory counts, so if the JLM version can do significantly better, then IMO it's well worth it.

lucho

28.11.2007, 09:28

@ jaybur

UIDE vs. XDMA32 & XCDROM32

> 1.75K is very good, but every byte of low memory counts, so if the
> JLM version can do significantly better, then IMO it's well worth it.

Yes, but these 1.75K can be in upper memory (so no low memory is used), if you specify DEVICEHIGH=UIDE.SYS in CONFIG.SYS, and it's for a HDD/CD/DVD cache size of up to 200MB (a few KB more are taken for a cache size of up to 1GB), whereas neither XDMA[32] nor XCDROM[32] do any caching. Plus there are other drawbacks of the old XDMA/XCDROM too (bugs, less control and compatibility, and so on).

flox

28.11.2007, 10:39

@ lucho

UIDE vs. XDMA32 & XCDROM32

> Yes, but these 1.75K can be in upper memory (so no low memory is used), if
> you specify DEVICEHIGH=UIDE.SYS in CONFIG.SYS, and it's for a HDD/CD/DVD
> cache size of up to 200MB (a few KB more are taken for a cache size of up
> to 1GB), whereas neither XDMA[32] nor XCDROM[32] do any caching. Plus
> there are other drawbacks of the old XDMA/XCDROM too (bugs, less control
> and compatibility, and so on).

If you don't like it, just don't use it :-) Japheth said, that it was easy to port - so there exists a second driver now which is also very good.

lucho 28.11.2007, 10:49 @ flox	Zorla güzellik olmaz
	"Zorla güzellik olmaz", as the Turks would say! The English say it longer: "You can take a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink".

Japheth

Germany (South),
28.11.2007, 10:52

@ lucho

Yes and No

> Yes, but these 1.75K can be in upper memory (so no low memory is used), if
> you specify DEVICEHIGH=UIDE.SYS in CONFIG.SYS, and it's for a HDD/CD/DVD
> cache size of up to 200MB (a few KB more are taken for a cache size of up
> to 1GB), whereas neither XDMA[32] nor XCDROM[32] do any caching. Plus
> there are other drawbacks of the old XDMA/XCDROM too (bugs, less control
> and compatibility, and so on).

Some remarks from me:

1. According to the "official" UIDE site it is "Gone Forever" (http://johnson.tmfc.net/dos/drivers.html). It seems a bit strange to compare XDMA32 with something not available at all. It probably can be found on your boot disks images, but these also contain "stolen" software, which some people want to avoid to download.

2. Caching is sometimes good, and sometimes it is bad and can even slow down things. I prefer a cache available as a separate module. And I also prefer to use extended memory for 32bit protected-mode DOS programs, and not waste it for a cache if the system includes fast SATA drives. Therefore, the original QDMA, which just cached 1-sector reads in a 256 kB buffer, was a better thing IMO.

3. Yes, there were some bugs in XDMA, but it is SOFTWARE and those bugs are/will be fixed finally.

4. UIDE has to do up to 5 switches to protected-mode during an Int 13h when running in v86-mode (2 VDS + 1 Int 15h + 2 A20). Not that this does matter a lot as far as speed is concerned, but it clearly shows that a driver running in protected-mode is the BETTER design then.

---
MS-DOS forever!

lucho

29.11.2007, 13:57

@ Japheth

Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!

Nothing you wrote is true. Really nothing!
May I remind you what Jack wrote on Udo's forum?

== start quote ===

Finally, I leave it for all of you to try almost ANYTHING on your systems using a disk cache, or not. SATA disks rotate at 7200/10000 RPM and still have "rotational latencies", and their "high" transfer rate of 1.5 to 6 Gigabits/sec ARE NOT matched by a "net" bit-stream from the disk of about 240 Megabits/sec! Do your OWN tests, then decide for yourselves if Japheth's comments about not needing a cache are correct, or NOT!

=== end quote ===

As I've tested, the speed difference in using UDMA+cache and only UDMA is really enormous.

Japheth

Germany (South),
29.11.2007, 15:05

@ lucho

Must have been a torture ...

... to see all those posts and being unable to reply because you believed that you were banned - and actually just had forgotten that you changed your password. Too bad that you weren't smart enough to think of opening just another account (believe me, we all would easily have recognized you as the TRUE "lucho", because it's simply impossible to fake your style). I realize now that a fool's live has its very own shortcomings.

About the "cache" issues: you're "answering questions which have not been asked", which tells me that you either a) don't know what you're talking about or b) are just "intellectually dishonest". The latter astonishes me slightly, to be honest, because I thought it impossible that anyone may be able to use the terms "intellectual" and you ("lucho") in one sentence.

---
MS-DOS forever!

Steve US, 29.11.2007, 15:35 @ lucho	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> what Jack wrote on Udo's forum > As I've tested, the speed difference in using UDMA+cache and only UDMA is > really enormous. I believe it. Jack says so. You say so. End of story. I am not at all disturbed by the lack of equipment specifications, OSes, file operations, precise time measurements, or any other stupid garbage.

Khusraw 29.11.2007, 16:39 @ Steve	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> I believe it. Jack says so. You say so. End of story. I am not at all > disturbed by the lack of equipment specifications, OSes, file operations, > precise time measurements, or any other stupid garbage. The problem is not what you believe, but the fact that a humorous member of this board has tried to spread real blazing and bullying lies.

Steve US, 29.11.2007, 23:43 (edited by Steve, 30.11.2007, 00:15) @ Khusraw	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> The problem is not what you believe, but the fact that a humorous member > of this board has tried to spread real blazing and bullying > lies. Perfectly true to form: Change the subject yet again, rather then present evidence. Edit: Corrected minor typing error.

Khusraw 30.11.2007, 07:31 @ Steve	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> Perfectly true to form: Change the subject yet again, rather then present > evidence. We are talking about measurable and verifiable things. If you really need to have your opinion on this matter, begin by doing some test and see the results for yourself. But are you sure that you understand what's it all about?

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 08:48

@ Khusraw

Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!

> We are talking about measurable and verifiable things.

If performance is measurable, let the author present measurements. If you have tested, why don't you share the results?

> If you really need to to have your opinion on this matter, begin by doing
> some test and see the results for yourself.

No. I don't bother to test on the basis of nothing.

> But are you sure that you understand what's it all about?

No. What is cache?

Khusraw 30.11.2007, 09:36 @ Steve	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> If performance is measurable, let the author present measurements. If you > have tested, why don't you share the results? Because we prefer to let you see the results for yourself than to present you some figures which you are ever-ready to doubt. > No. What is cache? I don't have the time to explain you the term. Search the Web for the answer.

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 09:49 @ Khusraw	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> Because we prefer to let you see the results for yourself than to present > you some figures which you are ever-ready to doubt. This is truly comical. I take it to mean you have no hard data. Else, what's the secret? > > No. What is cache? > > I don't have the time to explain you the term. Search the Web for the > answer. I did, and only found spiders. Please help.

Khusraw 30.11.2007, 12:38 @ Steve	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	Now it's clear that you are really slow-minded

Steve US, 30.11.2007, 13:20 @ Khusraw	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> Now it's clear that you are really slow-minded And still waiting for the secret information. What kind of socialist are you, that you don't share?

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:06 @ Steve	Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!
	> And still waiting for the secret information. What kind of socialist are you, that you don't share? If you don't believe that cache counts, that's your problem, not ours. Why should we try to accelerate the computers of those who insult us every half an hour?! Why should we strive to do you any good at all?! Keep living in your ignorance, if that makes you happy!

Steve

US,
30.11.2007, 16:00

@ lucho

Nothing you wrote is true. Cache matters a lot!

> If you don't believe that cache counts, that's your problem, not ours.

Believing cache matters is one thing - sometimes it does. But believing a particulatr program works well is another thing.

> Why should we try to accelerate the computers of those who insult us every half an hour?! Why should we strive to do you any good at all?!

So that we will come to believe you are true comrades, and appreciate and love you for sharing information.

> Keep living in your ignorance, if that makes you happy!

You misunderstand completely (as usual). I'm simply not interested in starting from zero to see if maybe something works, without a hint of evidence that it does. Maybe you want to waste your time testing everything from zero, but I like a filtering process.

lucho 30.11.2007, 16:55 @ Steve	Cache vs. no cache test with UDMA
	I did such test a few months ago and posted the results, but can't find my post.

rr

Berlin, Germany,
30.11.2007, 17:28

@ lucho

Cache vs. no cache test with UDMA

> I did such test a few months ago and posted the results, but can't find my
> post.

Do you mean Ultimate DOS kernel file copy speed test?

Time to lock another thread, eh? :-|

---
Forum admin

lucho

30.11.2007, 18:09
(edited by lucho, 30.11.2007, 18:28)

@ rr

Cache vs. no cache test with UDMA. Your links to IBIBLIO

> Do you mean Ultimate DOS kernel file copy speed test?

No - as far as I remember, it was a special test to show the influence of the cache. I tink it was on Udo's forum where the same cache / no-cache arguments were going...

Thanks for showing how to add a link to an existing post here ("msg=xxx").

> Time to lock another thread, eh? :-|

It seems so. You could lock it at 23:59 GMT today...

It is also interesting that, if A. Grech and his friends here believe that XDMA32 is so "great", why do you have a new link to Jack's drivers on FreeDOS IBIBLIO? And if only Grech's "slight difference" exists between using XDMA32 / LBACACHE and using UIDE, why does IBIBLIO have a mirror of XMGR/UIDE at all? LBACACHE hasn't changed for years, while Jack took Tom Ehlert's suggestion in 2003 of using the HMA as a way to save space, without needing anything incompatible like JLMs. Do people really like losing all that upper-memory for LBACACHE, when UIDE needs only 1.75K for up to a 200 MB cache, 3.5K for 250 MB and can reach up to 1 GB? Try getting to any of those sizes with LBACACHE!

You still show a link to Jack's drivers on IBIBLIO because you know what works, like Jim Hall who also knows what works. That's why J. Hall refuses to remove Jack's drivers from IBIBLIO, although he knows that Jack doesn't want his drivers associated with FreeDOS, same as Jack now doesn't want the drivers associated with BTTR. Far too many bad guys on the forums of both websites! :-(

Japheth

Germany (South),
30.11.2007, 19:34

@ lucho

..................

> > Time to lock another thread, eh? :-|
>
> It seems so. You could lock it at 23:59 GMT today...

@rr: Or even better, consider to lock this clown's account. Since he is so eagerly awaiting this board's funeral, he can as well wait "outside" IMO. And if there is "need", he can use "Udo's forum" to get rid of his "loads".

> It is also interesting that, if A. Grech and his friends here believe that
> XDMA32 is so "great", why do you have a new link to Jack's drivers on
> FreeDOS IBIBLIO? And if only Grech's "slight difference" exists between
> using XDMA32 / LBACACHE and using UIDE, why does IBIBLIO have a mirror of
> XMGR/UIDE at all? LBACACHE hasn't changed for years, while Jack took Tom
> Ehlert's suggestion in 2003 of using the HMA as a way to save space,
> without needing anything incompatible like JLMs. Do people really like
> losing all that upper-memory for LBACACHE, when UIDE needs only
> 1.75K for up to a 200 MB cache, 3.5K for 250 MB and can reach up to 1 GB?
> Try getting to any of those sizes with LBACACHE!

[................... snip]

Have you anything else in your head besides "caches"? This is such a minor issue in the current DOS world, but judging from your propaganda it's the most important thing in the world. Absolutely boring ...

If it makes you happy: UIDE - or whatever name your master is willing to give it once it "reappears" - is the best cache of all times, nothing will ever reach it.

---
MS-DOS forever!

rr

Berlin, Germany,
30.11.2007, 22:41

@ lucho

Cache vs. no cache test with UDMA. Your links to IBIBLIO

> Thanks for showing how to add a link to an existing post here
> ("msg=xxx").

So you obviously never read msg #1.

> It is also interesting that, if A. Grech and his friends here believe that
> XDMA32 is so "great", why do you have a new link to Jack's drivers on
> FreeDOS IBIBLIO?

Why not? Japheth's driver is still preliminary, while Jack's are mature.

> And if only Grech's "slight difference" exists between using XDMA32 /
> LBACACHE and using UIDE, why does IBIBLIO have a mirror of XMGR/UIDE at all?

Jim Hall doesn't know about Japheth's driver. But Jim knew "funny" Jack from the past. So he saved those drivers for "bad" people like me. As we can see now, he did it right.

> Try getting to any of those sizes with LBACACHE!

Why? I'm no LBACACHE user. I'm using outdated QCACHE.

> You still show a link to Jack's drivers on IBIBLIO because you know what
> works, like Jim Hall who also knows what works.

I wouldn't have known until you told me. Thanks!

> want his drivers associated with FreeDOS, same as Jack now doesn't want
> the drivers associated with BTTR. Far too many bad guys on the forums of
> both websites! :-(

I make this decision for you: Your account is blocked now. Good luck with EDR-DOS or your pirated software.

---
Forum admin

Japheth

Germany (South),
29.11.2007, 09:39

@ lucho

embargo counterstrikes

> I think that except as examples how to write a JLM, they don't do much
> good now when we have UIDE which takes just 1.75K (for up to 200 MB of
> cache!) of upper memory - a very small amount for a fully caching UDMA
> driver of HDD/CD/DVD. The only reason A. Grech added XDMA32 is to upset
> Jack again, not to help his users. Isn't that a big hypocrisy?

Hypo, there is a misconception in your thoughts. I don't act unreasonable. As you might be able to realize, all the drivers - HIMEMX, XCDROM32 and XDMA32 - were released at times when your master had installed his little embargos. And the intention behind these action was to make him learn that his drivers are important, but not ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, and his embargos are therefore a waste of time. Some pain can drastically increase the learning effect, so it is indeed appreciated that Jack was slightly upset (thanks for confirming that!), but this is just a side effect.

Yes, the highly optimized UIDE might be slightly faster than the combination XDMA32 + LBACACHE, but almost nobody will care. It's just this famous 0.1% part of users who does.

---
MS-DOS forever!

lucho 30.11.2007, 15:21 @ Japheth	Keep using LBACACHE
	> Yes, the highly optimized UIDE might be slightly faster than the combination XDMA32 + LBACACHE, > but almost nobody will care. It's just this famous 0.1% part of users who does. Those 0.1% are for whom it's worth working! You're not among them. So keep using LBACACHE if you like it so much. I don't care about you and am even glad that your PC runs slower.

Japheth

Germany (South),
30.11.2007, 16:34

@ Japheth

Someone owning a SATA CD-ROM/DVD?

I just uploaded another preliminary Jemm v5.68 version.

The XDMA32 has been modified slightly so it does no longer try to touch non-PCI drives (Qemu). Another improvement is that XDMA32 no longer needs 32 bytes of precious DOS memory :-D .

For XCDROM32, support for "native" IDE controllers has been added. This should make XCDROM32 capable to handle SATA DVD drives, but I have none to test this. If someone owns one, and is able to set his/her SATA controller into "native" mode in the BIOS, please test!

---
MS-DOS forever!

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support) (Announce)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

preliminary Jemm v5.68 (includes XDMA32 with SATA support)

Licence conflict

Licence conflict

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Licence conflict

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Licence conflict

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Licence conflict

NO insult

True names

NO insult

Licence conflict

Licence conflict

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

Grossly off-topic: Human nature or his nature?!

JLOAD source code

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

You must be a deserter

Successful socialism

Successful socialism

You must be a deserter

You're Stepan from Russia!

"Socialism"

"Socialism"

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

JLOAD source code

Holy copyright

Finally a sunbeam of reason

Finally a sunbeam of reason

Bumble bees in your heads

Bumble bees in your heads

Bumble bees in your heads, multi-barrel machine gun mouths

Bumble bees in your heads, multi-barrel machine gun mouths

Who's your gang's boss?

Licence conflict

Licence conflict

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